Creation vs. Evolution

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Unfortunately, your idea of "truth" is not truth at all! If truth is actually true, then it does not change. There are truths out there. For simplicity sake, 1 + 1 = 2. That is a truth, and it doesn't change based upon your experiences.

But any sort of "absolute" truth is becoming increasingly "politically incorrect".

We may actually see the day when mathematics and any real science is outlawed on the basis that it hurts the feelings of oppressed minorities and is, therefore, discriminatory. The teaching of such discriminatory ideas would be viewed as hate speech and carry severe penalties.
 
Life (and death) is too complicated for ordinary mortals to fully comprehend. Can't imagine why anyone here feels they have the answers to anything. Let's get back to the road/karma/God's will that made us divers and just enjoy the ride.

Have a good one guys... I really hate these discussions. My belief system says they are pointless... :lotsalove:
 
But any sort of "absolute" truth is becoming increasingly "politically incorrect".

We may actually see the day when mathematics and any real science is outlawed on the basis that it hurts the feelings of oppressed minorities and is, therefore, discriminatory. The teaching of such discriminatory ideas would be viewed as hate speech and carry severe penalties.

And then the "thought police" can come arrest us who are involved in the sciences!!!
 
Political correctness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Some commentators have argued that the term "political correctness" is a straw man invented by conservatives in the 1990s in order to challenge progressive social change, especially with respect to issues of race, religion and gender.[1][4] Ruth Perry traces the term back to Mao's Little Red Book. According to Perry, the term was later adopted by the radical left in the 1960s, initially seriously and later ironically, as a self-criticism of dogmatic attitudes. In the 1990s, because of the term's association with radical politics and communist censorship, it was used by the political right in the United States to discredit the Old and New Left.[2]"
 
And then the "thought police" can come arrest us who are involved in the sciences!!!

I wonder if they'll be put into the cell next to the "religionists".
 
Political correctness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Some commentators have argued that the term "political correctness" is a straw man invented by conservatives in the 1990s in order to challenge progressive social change, especially with respect to issues of race, religion and gender.[1][4] Ruth Perry traces the term back to Mao's Little Red Book. According to Perry, the term was later adopted by the radical left in the 1960s, initially seriously and later ironically, as a self-criticism of dogmatic attitudes. In the 1990s, because of the term's association with radical politics and communist censorship, it was used by the political right in the United States to discredit the Old and New Left.[2]"

Taking this at face value, if the term was used by the radical left in the 60's, we know that it wasn't invented by conservatives in the 90's.

I would have to admit to associating the term with the radical politics and communist (or socialist) censorship. However, we don't need a buzz-word to discredit the "left". LOL
 
Okay. This one will take awhile to digest but I could also point to several creationist sites which also offer up adecdotal evidences to the contrary.
The 29+ evidences for Macroevolution are just that, evidences, not anecdotal data. The creationist sites don't even come up to the level of anecdote ... they are, without exception, misstatements of fact, misunderstanding of science or appeals to biblical authority.
The only "observed" evolution is within species evolution, or microevolution. Macro evolution still has giant gaps in the fossil record that requrie huge leaps of faith to believe. Please bring forth any "evidence" I might not be privvy to. Ultimately science can never "prove" the random formation of life and can only theorize how it started. Even the simplest life contains 1000s of protein molecules and, formaldehyde experiments aside, the odds of one protein molecule forming in nature and combining are so small the word impossible comes to mind.
A perfect example of both misstatement of fact and misunderstanding of science, all that's missing is a biblical quote.
My dad is atheist, my mom agnostic. I formed my opinions on origin after a lot of thought and study. You can imagine we don't discuss religion much at family gatherings..hehe.
Ah, so you're becoming a religionist finds its roots in your teenage angst and your need to establish yourself in the face of parental authority?
I think evolution leaves huge gaps in understanding origins of life and behavior. Take for instance the Plover and the Crocodile and their symbiotic relationship. You can extend this to the ocean and the many symbiotic relationships that exist there. Scientists are fond of quoting things like the articulated jaw structure of the cynodonts but then stumble when confronted with things observed or known in the world that don't support evolution. Take DNA for example. Genetically programmed to do what it was designed to do. You and I type on a computer program with less complexity than a single strand of DNA yet neither of us would even ponder that the computer program was generated randomly.
Classic ... almost vintage horse pucky, its amazing that there are still people out there so poorly read that they are still willing to bring forward these long discredited line of "reasoning." Just look up "blind watchmaker."
Brontosaurus was a fabrication in 1930s by a scientist who wanted headlines. It stayed in children's books and educational institutions for 50 years before it was removed. Interestingly enough, the science community turned a blind eye to it because it was an instrument to peek children's curiosity into the world of dinosaurs.
Javaman was a complete fabrication by Leakey. He took the skull of a giant gibbon and put it on the skeleton of a man.
Oh, I had fogotten, there's misstatement of fact, misunderstanding of science, and just plain lies. Brontosaurus "arose" from rather a rather unscientific personal rivalry between two early paleontologists, it was a misidentification's of a skeleton with an incorrect skull to boot, back in the mid to late 1800s. The mistake was exposed in the scientific community way back in 1903, bu the name Brontosaurus hung on in the public mind, you can't blame science for that. As far as Java Man is concerened, "Java Man" is the name given to fossils discovered in 1891 at Trinil on the banks of the Bengawan Solo River in East Java, Indonesia, one of the first known specimens of Homo erectus. Its discoverer, Eugène Dubois, gave it the scientific name Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. Leakey had nothing to do with it's discovery or its initial description. Once again, lies. This approach is typical of the creationists, David Menton, in The Scientific Evidence For the Origin of Man, writes about the fossil WT 15000 (the Turkana Boy) says:
"He had a low forehead and pronounced brow ridges not unlike some races of modern man. Richard Leaky [sic] said that this boy would go unnoticed in a crowd today."​
Don Patton uses a similar quote, saying that according to Richard Leakey:
"....he would probably go unnoticed in a crowd today."​
What Leakey really said, in the November 1985 issue of National Geographic, was:
"Suitably clothed and with a cap to obscure his low forehead and beetle brow, he would probably go unnoticed in a crowd today."

 
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Passing experimental tests has nothing to do with being published in secular peer-reviewed journals.

Of course not. Any result must be reproducible, explained in relation to existing knowledge, and novel (i.e. new) to be published in peer-review journals.

Secular science operates under a foundational philosophy of naturalism...that existence consists ONLY of physical things.

This is simply untrue. Firstly, science is not secular. Nor is it religious. It is a completely separate phenomena which, to be blunt, doesn't give a damn if their is a god or not. Science can only measure things which have a physical existence in our universe, meaning that by its fundamental nature it cannot measure metaphysical things. There is no assumptions there - to date, no one's been able to build a "soul-o-meter" or a "godometer", and until someone finds a way to measure things like that empirically, science will not have anything to say on that matter, one way or the other.

Plainly speaking, you are as incorrect in assuming that science is trying to ignore god as an atheist is in assuming science disproves the existence of god. The reality is much simpler - science cares not, and only deals with physical phenomena which can be directly measured and quantified.

You were close to understanding the fundamental assumption that underlies all science, but you ended up missing the mark - science assumes that we live in a casual universe which operates on the basis of set, understandable rules. Whether or not god exists, and/or makes those rules, is not a topic science deals with.

Its clear you've learned most of your science in a church who treats all scientists as atheists trying to undo the word of god. I hate to break it to you, but most of us don't give a s__t about your faith and really don't care if our work supports your faith or not. Maybe try reading a little about scientists and our goals before you just to conclusions like the ones above. Our motivations, and religious beliefs, are probably quite a bit different from what you've been lead to believe.

However, they delve into the untestable/unfalsifiable when they (they refers to secular science) write about origins (abiogenesis) and the age of the universe and of the earth

Actually, these things are both testable, and falsifiable. Just to break down your examples:

Abiogenesis:

  • Testable aspects:
    • does the chemistry work
    • can self-replication occur
    • is self-replication sufficient for development of more complex forms
    • can predicted pre-life forms be generated
    • can life be generated de novo
    • Predictions as to the characteristics of early life
  • Falsifiable aspects:
    • chemistry
    • probability
    • disproof of fundamental assumptions
Origin/age of universe

  • Testable aspects:
    • Age via different methods
    • Look for expected products of big bang (CMB)
    • Predicted vs. actual spectra of extremely old galaxies
    • Distribution of mass
    • Nature and interplay of the various physical laws which amke up our universe
  • Falsifiable aspects:
    • Age (i.e. if different methods predicted vastly different ages)
    • Lack of predicted phenomena (no CME)
    • Identification of unpredicted/"impossible" phenomena
Origin/age of earth:

  • Testable aspects:
    • Age via different methods
    • Actual make up vs. makeup predicted by origin model
    • Observation of equivelent systems forming (i.e. in orion nebula)
    • Presence and characteristics of "leftovers"
  • Falsifiable aspects:
    • Disagreement between aging methods
    • Large degree of difference between makeup of the earth and the "leftovers"
    • Failure to observe planetary formation occurring elsewhere
all of these are conclusions that are interpreted under the philosophy of naturalism.

No. These thoeries are simply the best description of the existing data we've been able to come up with to-date. They meet all the criteria to be a scientific theory, are derived from logic, are both explanatory and predictive, and (to date) have no opposing evidence to show that they are wrong.

Does that make sense?

Of course it doesn't. But given that you've started with a false assumption it should be of no surprise that reality does not line up with your incorrect view of science.

Someone else doing the exact same science (observations and data collecting) could come up with a different conclusion when the evidence is interpreted under a different philosophy.

You know, we hear this claim a lot, and yet despite the evidence being available to the public alternate models are not being proposed. One has to wonder - if such alternate hypothesis are so easily derived from alternative "perspectives", then why do we not see people proposing alternate models.

The answer, of course, is simple. When you start with a philosophy (which, BTW, is the exact opposite of what science tried to do) you often end up having to do distinctly non-scientific things - like having to explain away inconvenient data. More often than not this results in "thoeries" (and I use that term very loosely here) like creationism/IDism which neither achieve the standards expected of a scientific theory, and are based more on the dismissal of evidence than on the explanation of evidence.

Keep in mind, all of those theories you so readily dismiss were proposed as ways to explain data we already had in hand. When you start with a philosophy you're doing the opposite - you've got your final conclusion in hand, and then try to fit the data to that.

That method, the method you prefer, is proven to not work, and has been rejected by science for over 2000 years.

So, when secular peer reviewed journals get wind of the philosophy under which your interpretations of evidence are being drawn, and that philosophy is not naturalism, then the journal submission is dismissed out of hand without regard to content.

Hardly. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of scientific papers published by openly religious scientists. Likewise, most scientific papers try to challenge, or undermine, or even overturn previously held scientific beliefs. Even today, scientists who openly hold creationist beliefs continue to publish successfully in their fields - including the publication of papers which some interpret as disproof of certain scientific principals. One need look no farther then a creationist webpage to find citations to these articles.

At the end of the day, to be publishable in a scientific journal, a paper must meet some pretty basic criteria:
1) Be based on novel data (i.e. consist of new work), or
1b) Be a novel re-analysis of existing data
2) Meet, or exceed, accepted standards for data gathering and statistical analysis
3) Make no claims beyond those explicitly indicated by the results, and lastly
4) All conjecture and hypothesis should be consistent with published literature

If you can meet those criteria, then your work is publishable; no matter how much it goes against dogma.

Bryan
 
Man! You are psychic. You called it!

Do you have the lottery numbers for Wednesday, too:D


Either God has always existed, or the universe has always existed.
 
Gaps in the fossil record. Lack of transitional forms. DNA - is a complicated genetic program. IE therefore had a programmer?
When you look at the complexity of modern organisms and yourself what are the odds of that occurring, you're just looking through a pair of binoculars backwards and announcing to the world that everything you see is far, far away.

A petrified tree standing upright through millions of years of strata. Volcanic activity on the moons of Jupiter. Symbiotic relationships like the Plover and the Nile Croc. The random formation of a single protein molecule and the mathematical odds of that occuring in nature are astronomical.
These are just wierd arguments (misstatements, misunderstandings and lies) advanced by the crackpot Ken Hovind, along with:

"The "ancient horse" (hyracotherium) is not a horse, but is just like the hyrax still alive in turkey and east africa today."

"[…..] a change of only three [DNA] nucleotides is fatal to an animal. There is no possibility of change."

"I did not even know what being a humanist meant. I was only sixteen, and the brain doesn't even start developing until about twenty. "

"Therefore, there may not be any other stars in the solar system that have planets around them. "

In reference to Pangaea when he tried to anaylyze things on a Mercator projection instead of a globe: In order to make that map you saw in the textbook, Africa was shrunk by 40% to make it fit. Didn't tell you about that did they? They took Mexico and central America out to make it fit. "

"Mammoths do not have any sweat glands. They were not designed for cold climates."

"We see a red shift from quite a few of the stars. That is interpreted to be the star is moving away. It may be true, I don't know. It could be the star is moving sideways. I don't think you can tell the angle of the stars movement - or even if the star is moving from the red shift."

"If you are traveling down the highway at sixty miles an hour, and turn your headlights on, how fast is the light going from your headlights? Compared to you, it is going at the speed of light. Compared to someone on the sidewalk it is going at the speed of light plus sixty miles an hour." wrong.

"Well, in 1972 after they had been to the moon several times, they revised the calculation of how much dust there should be so that it would fit the evolution theory."

"I think it would be difficult to prove that vaccines have cured any diseases. I think you will find that cleaning up sanitation laws, inspection of cattle and stuff like that, getting rid of diseased creatures and diseased crops is really what has done the job. Now there may be a coincidence they happened at the same time. Like when they started, you know, vaccinating for one thing and at the same time had better sanitation laws and inspections. It may look like the vaccine cured the disease when actually something else cured the disease."

"Clams don't climb mountains very good." (referring to fossil seashells found in the rock on mountains.)

"One example of technology is the UPC, or bar code. IBM developed the bar code in 1972. The black and white lines stand for numbers and letters in binary code. By the way, the two skinny lines at the beginning, middle, and end of every barcode are the same as "6" in binary code: 666."

"This is call the Conservation of Angular Momentum. One of the laws says in a frictionless environment, if pieces fly off a spinning object they tend to spin the same direction, because the outer part is already spinning faster than the inner part."

"I have a Ph.D." Hovind has a PhD in "Christian Education" from Patriot University (now Patriot Bible University) it is usually described as a, "diploma mill." Patriot University claims to be accredited by the unrecognized American Accrediting Association of Theological Institutions which operates from the same PO Box as Christian Bible College. Both AAATI and CBC are run by Cecil Johnson and CBC is only accredited by, you guessed it, AAATI. This blatant conflict of interest could be a litmus test for the quality of AAATI.

To top it all off, please read, The Dissertation Kent Hovind Doesn't Want You to Read.

Lies, lies and more lies.

So - the odds of a complex, sequential, genetic program from forming through evolution and random events is impossible.
Actually the odds are unity ... one! What you are doing is asking what are the odds of a ball taking exactly the same specific path down a Pechenko machine that a previous ball took. Having a ball follow a predrawn path is very unlikely, but iot is going to take some path down and it is going to wind up at the bottom.

Sure it is. Evolution in its purest sense believes that life began in a primortal ooze. Its a nice fairy tale. But in order for that life to start, several impossibilities need to take place...ie the random formation of a protein molecule. Then it has to bind with others before the forces that brought it together, rip it apart again.
The question of what is a "primortal ooze" aside (I have no idea of what sort of ooze that might be). Evolution, the way evolution occurs and the origin of life are three different questions. Only then most muddled thinking or premeditated attempt to create confusion could confulse (or pretend to confuse) them.
 
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