Creation vs. Evolution

[MikeFerrara]

Nice to be of service. Creationist websites were instrumental in my "conversion" to atheism, so thanks for returning the favour.

I didn't have anything to do with any of those sites.

There is so much about creation that nobody knows. About the only thing that I strongly believe about it is that God did it. It doesn't bother me all that much that I don't completely understand exactly how he did it.

 

[coachpill]

Wordplay.

If one claims everything requires a cause then it follows that god requires a cause.

If you on the other hand claim god always existed then one can claim with equal validity that the universe always existed and god is not necessary for its 'creation'.

These are true and logical statements.

If you just assume scripture contains truth then you can basically just assume anything you want. I have a problem with the 'assuming' part here. We know scripture contains errors and contradictions, why trust any of it?

Speaking of wordplay! Lol!!!

Actually, your first statement is a complete misrepresentation. I know that I have never claimed that "everything requires a cause," and obviously I wouldn't...because God has no cause.

It is not I claiming that God has always existed, otherwise I would agree with your statement about claiming that the universe has always existed (sounds a lot like Carl Sagan, doesn't it...Humanist of the Year for 1980 something...go figure).

Yes, I assume Scripture contains truth. And because of that, I cannot assume anything I want.

I'd like to see an error in Scripture when you get the time.

Thanks!!

 

[Sas]

Besides, pushing views down others throats is what the "left" does best.

What is the 'left'? How do you define the left? I don't personally identify with the 'left', or the 'right'. They both have their good features and bad features.

I think that's why critics of the Bible aren't very effective. There are some difficult things in the Bible but they never seem to get that far. They don't understand enough to even ask the tough questions. It's like giving a calculus text to a 3rd grader and asking them to criticize it. They could come up with a lot but it would all be foolish and do nothing but demonstrate their own lack of understanding. There are some unanswered questions in mathematics but the 3rd grader isn't going to find them.

I'd rephrase this like this personally:

"I think that's why critics of evolution aren't very effective. There are some difficult things in evolutionary theory but they never seem to get that far. They don't understand enough to even ask the tough questions. It's like giving a calculus text to a 3rd grader and asking them to criticize it. They could come up with a lot but it would all be foolish and do nothing but demonstrate their own lack of understanding. There are some unanswered questions in mathematics but the 3rd grader isn't going to find them."

Works well for me!

Are those examples of God's doing or examples of sins of people? God tells us not to do those things. Paople choose not to listen and you want to blame God?

They aren't sins or God's doing. They are people doing terrible things (I don't define this as a 'sin' though, as this has religious overtones). If God is the creator of humankind, why did he create them with such a capacity for evil? If that is what your God is, then it isn't a God I could support. As Mark Twain (pretty sure it was him anyway ) put it "If there is a God, he is a malign thug".

Your request is unreasonable. You're asking me not to do what I think is right on so many levels.

Ditto. All I am asking is that Christians and atheists stay out of each other's lives. As far as I'm concerned, I stay out of what Christians do in the bedroom, or with their bodies, and what they believe in. You've been posting about how people should stop rebelling against God, stop sleeping with who they want, stop having control over their own bodies, asking that certain people be disallowed from adopting solely because of their sexual preference, etc etc, basically assuming that we should have the same belief system as you. I have not been asking you to stop believing in God, just that you stop interfering in the lives of people who do not believe in God. But yea, you seem like you will never get the difference

 

[Sordello]

Dang it... I do not believe I am responding to this discussion!!!

There are 2 issues in this discussion that make it ridiculous or impossible to have a appropriate solution.

For the sake of simplicity I will call these two concepts "Beliefs" and "Truths".

Truths are the easiest things to describe as they are based on experience, location, and reality of everyday life. Since these things are always changing... The truth is always changing.

Belief is the psychological state in which an individual is convinced of the truth of a proposition. So beliefs always affect the truths as individual sees it.

Realities based on beliefs can include many thing besides religion. Concepts such as global warming or which political party is right can fall under the category of a belief system. You can't argue with a belief and hope for success as it is the rock by which the individual has based his entire life and truth upon.

In the early days of the church there was an argument of how to describe the nature of God and Jesus. These people were fully aware that the nature of God was without description but you can't build a organization like a church without a sound basis and description of the truth. The basic argument was Between Trinitarianism and Arianism. I loved the story about how St Nicholas - a trinitarian - either punched or slapped the other guy who was an Arian at the council of Nicene... and thrown out for a couple days. This argument was all based on beliefs.

Now it is time to do what I believe God intended us to do... Enjoy Life! If discussing the unanswerable questions of life is what you enjoy - happily go on doing so.

 

[coachpill]

Dang it... I do not believe I am responding to this discussion!!!

There are 2 issues in this discussion that make it ridiculous or impossible to have a appropriate solution.

For the sake of simplicity I will call these two concepts "Beliefs" and "Truths".

Truths are the easiest things to describe as they are based on experience, location, and reality of everyday life. Since these things are always changing... The truth is always changing.

Belief is the psychological state in which an individual is convinced of the truth of a proposition. So beliefs always affect the truths as individual sees it.

Realities based on beliefs can include many thing besides religion. Concepts such as global warming or which political party is right can fall under the category of a belief system. You can't argue with a belief and hope for success as it is the rock by which the individual has based his entire life and truth upon.

In the early days of the church there was an argument of how to describe the nature of God and Jesus. These people were fully aware that the nature of God was without description but you can't build a organization like a church without a sound basis and description of the truth. The basic argument was Between Trinitarianism and Arianism. I loved the story about how St Nicholas - a trinitarian - either punched or slapped the other guy who was an Arian at the council of Nicene... and thrown out for a couple days. This argument was all based on beliefs.

Now it is time to do what I believe God intended us to do... Enjoy Life! If discussing the unanswerable questions of life is what you enjoy - happily go on doing so.

Unfortunately, your idea of "truth" is not truth at all! If truth is actually true, then it does not change. There are truths out there. For simplicity sake, 1 + 1 = 2. That is a truth, and it doesn't change based upon your experiences.

 

[Sas]

Unfortunately, your idea of "truth" is not truth at all! If truth is actually true, then it does not change. There are truths out there. For simplicity sake, 1 + 1 = 2. That is a truth, and it doesn't change based upon your experiences.

Not if they are extremely large values of 1...

 

[Sordello]

Unfortunately, your idea of "truth" is not truth at all! If truth is actually true, then it does not change. There are truths out there. For simplicity sake, 1 + 1 = 2. That is a truth, and it doesn't change based upon your experiences.

Ah, you have to prove that the number 1 exist or what exactly is - Mathematicians still haven't done that. It is all still a concept - a belief system! This one guy wrote something like 27 volumes of books on proving 1 exists - still an argument.

 

[coachpill]

Not if they are extremely large values of 1...

As funny as that is...I think my point is taken by all. Truth is, and does not change.

 

[coachpill]

Ah, you have to prove that the number 1 exist or what exactly is - Mathematicians still haven't done that. It is all still a concept - a belief system! This one guy wrote something like 27 volumes of books on proving 1 exists - still an argument.

I'll just "ditto" my last post.

 

[Sas]

As funny as that is...I think my point is taken by all. Truth is, and does not change.

Yea, just trying to lighten the mood. Truth by its definition is a fact so I agree with you there, but it is pretty hard to come to an agreement on what constitutes a 'truth' or a 'fact' (this thread is a good example ). In some streams of philosophy nothing is considered to be able to be verified including the physical world so you wouldn't have an agreement that mathematics is a proof from those people. Same goes with religion, there are no religious 'truths' that everyone agrees on (even within same denominations and parishes). Anyway, I have probably explained that poorly but I am exhausted from diving all day and will retire to bed now.

Good night!