Creation vs. Evolution

[MikeFerrara]

Not really, tangible evidence would make me receptive.

Jesus gave lots of tangible evidence. It made some receptive but others deny Him to this day.

 

[coachpill]

Like the Wiz (Wizard of Oz)?


We all know how that turned out with the same explanation


No...do not approach the curtain

What I find interesting is your last statement in your post that posed the question, where you said, "...I say that there must be an origin to God." Question...are you setting yourself up as the ultimate authority? If so, that is fine. If not, then who or what?

 

[sheck33]

Man! You are psychic. You called it!

Do you have the lottery numbers for Wednesday, too

Man I wish!

 

[sheck33]

True, but only if your "logic" has as its foundation philosophical naturalism and materialism, and possibly a healthy dose of secular humanism.

Your underlying philosophy will always drive what you deem as "logical" in your mind.

So if we operate under the philosophy that scripture contains truth and was God-breathed, then God himself claimed to be alive and eternally existent in the past, the present, and the future. If that is true, then, "No, God would not need a cause," and, "Yes, God would be eternally existent."

Logically, there is nothing wrong with saying this. The reason you say it falls apart is because it flies in the face of your currently held philosophy that there is nothing beyond the natural.

Wordplay.

If one claims everything requires a cause then it follows that god requires a cause.

If you on the other hand claim god always existed then one can claim with equal validity that the universe always existed and god is not necessary for its 'creation'.

These are true and logical statements.

If you just assume scripture contains truth then you can basically just assume anything you want. I have a problem with the 'assuming' part here. We know scripture contains errors and contradictions, why trust any of it?

 

[Sas]

Okay. This one will take awhile to digest but I could also point to several creationist sites which also offer up adecdotal evidences to the contrary.

Hate to break it to you mate, but anecdotes aren't evidence.

Can you site an obvious contradiction?

Many, too many to type, here's a thought why don't you google 'contradictions in the bible' and you can see all of them there! Here's a start A List Of Biblical Contradictions

Some are nitpicking for sure, but there are many valid ones in there...

Every man, woman and child that walks this Earth is sinful. Sometimes that sin is what we do, other times in what we fail to do.

Sure, I am a sinner, don't really care if I am in your opinion. Sinning is frequently fun.

In the same paragraph it tells the Husbands to serve your wives as Christ served the church. I would think if Husbands even came close to this kind of leadership, a woman would have no trouble submitting herself to him.

What paragraph? I am guessing you mean 1 Peter?

"Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

7Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers."

(my emphasis added to highlight my point)
Maybe it is just me, but I don't particularly like being told I have to be submissive to a man, or that I am the weaker sex. That kind of attitude is unacceptable in today's world. It feeds into the idea that women are weak and in need of protection. I personally would prefer equality in a relationship, not my partner being 'leader' over me. As it is neither one of us is controlling of the other and that makes for a very enjoyable and respectful relationship. I know many Christian marriages because of my religious family and I really dislike how all the women are house wives and the men go out and bring in the money. But to each their own... sucks the bible doesn't give you a choice over who has to submit hey? Why is it the woman?

There are physical laws, higher laws if you will, that govern our lives. The law of gravity for instance. You jump off a building you're subject to the law of gravity whether you believe in it or not. There are also spiritual laws which govern us as well, whether we agree with them or not.
Fair enough. But just so you know, God meets each person where they're at now. "Just as I am" is not just a song. God loves everyone and wants a personal relationship with anyone who wants a relationship with him. His unconditional love and forgiveness is larger than any addiction or behavior.

Sure, if that is what you think go for it. Gravity can be shown empirically, some God who loves everybody cannot.

No. You fully understood the post and chose to diverge its original meaning. The corollary I made is still valid. There are laws, forces, observance etc that we are subject to whether we like it or not. These forces are both natural and spiritual.

The Bible has over 2000 literal prophecies that have been fulfilled. It's common theme of over 60 books by over 30 authors written over 3000 years testifies to its divine inspiration.

Source please? You are sourcing the Bible, which is not known for its historical accuracy. I would like some other sources for all that you have stated in your examples of so called prophecies.

God doesn't promise us a life on earth that's free of hardship.

Do you think people (or you) would be more likely to be receptive to God or to learn if everything went perfectly for them all the time?

Actually, I would be much more receptive to a God that made everything work well. Why would I ever want to worship a God that lets people suffer the most horrific hardships??? If your God is good and all-powerful, then he should make the world like the Garden of Eden, and then everybody would follow him, you realise? I really don't get why Christians believe they need a God who only allows you into Heaven if you have faith, why not a God that makes himself known? Then everybody would believe in him. Why doesn't God want everybody to believe in him? It really seems that way, as he makes it really hard with a book that encourages sexist and homophobic attitudes, is full of contradictions, and no physical evidence of his existence.

Also to ce4jesus, why don't you start reading through this list An Index to Creationist Claims. If you can find another Creationist argument that has not already been refuted in this least, by all means, post it. Good luck with that...

 

[MikeFerrara]

Many, too many to type, here's a thought why don't you google 'contradictions in the bible' and you can see all of them there! Here's a start A List Of Biblical Contradictions

Some are nitpicking for sure, but there are many valid ones in there...

]I'll let someone else have a turn here. I went around on a bunch of that stuff earlier in the thread. Those web sites are designed to convince folks who won't take the time to study the Bible. In fact reading those lists leaves one with the impression that the author hasn't studdied the Bible.
LOL

(my emphasis added to highlight my point)
Maybe it is just me, but I don't particularly like being told I have to be submissive to a man, or that I am the weaker sex. That kind of attitude is unacceptable in today's world. It feeds into the idea that women are weak and in need of protection.

Woman are demenstrably the weaker sex.

As to the need for protection, you seem to have reversed your position from what it was when I suggested a course in self defense.

I personally would prefer equality in a relationship, not my partner being 'leader' over me. As it is neither one of us is controlling of the other and that makes for a very enjoyable and respectful relationship. I know many Christian marriages because of my religious family and I really dislike how all the women are house wives and the men go out and bring in the money.

Are you saying that the Christian marriages you know aren't respecful of enjoyable? Are the wives unhappy that their husband supports the family? I think my wife would be pretty ticked off if I stopped protecting and supporting the family.

But to each their own... sucks the bible doesn't give you a choice over who has to submit hey? Why is it the woman?

I thought you said that you know what the Bible says. It's all there.

Actually, I would be much more receptive to a God that made everything work well. Why would I ever want to worship a God that lets people suffer the most horrific hardships???

It's a matter of perspective. A child sometimes thinks it's a horrific hardship when they are made to do their chores, are punished or have to suffer the consequences of their own mistakes. Unfortunately, without those things, they end up spoiled rotten and useless. I don't think God wants us to be spoiled rotten and useless.

If your God is good and all-powerful, then he should make the world like the Garden of Eden, and then everybody would follow him, you realise?

He tried that.

I really don't get why Christians believe they need a God who only allows you into Heaven if you have faith, why not a God that makes himself known? Then everybody would believe in him. Why doesn't God want everybody to believe in him?

Because He gives you a choice in the matter. The most rebellious of us wouldn't deny him if it were that easy with everything just handed to us on a silver platter but nothing would be learned and none of it would mean much.

It really seems that way, as he makes it really hard with a book that encourages sexist and homophobic attitudes, is full of contradictions, and no physical evidence of his existence.

Your own open rebellion against God should answer most of your own questions. You are absolutely determined not to do it His way but you think He should do it your way.

We see over and over from the beginning of the Bible to the end that it's exactly our pride and rebellion that necessarily seperates us from God.

 

[Sas]

]I'll let someone else have a turn here. I went around on a bunch of that stuff earlier in the thread. Those web sites are designed to convince folks who won't take the time to study the Bible. In fact reading those lists leaves one with the impression that the author hasn't studdied the Bible.
LOL

Examples please? Cos I have a Bible right in front of me that has many contradictions. Of course, many Christians over look these contradictions and say they are not actually contradictions, but yea to me it is black and white.

Woman are demenstrably the weaker sex.

On average, women are physically weaker. But not always, I can beat my partner in arm wrestling and lift more weight than him at the gym, for example. Among many other guys over the years.

But yea, the Bible can be and has been on many occasions interpreted as that women are the weaker sex overall (mentally and emotionally for example). Do you personally just believe this Biblical quote is referring only to physical strength Mike?

As to the need for protection, you seem to have reversed your position from what it was when I suggested a course in self defense.

Go back and read what I said as you have clearly misinterpreted. I have done karate for a while and have learned self-defense, so I am not against the idea of courses in self-defense. If, however, I was raped then it would in NO WAY be my fault, even though I have taken self-defense classes. I never said defense classes were a bad idea, just that they a. shouldn't be required in society b. one should not request a woman do something like that so she isn't raped as that is putting the responsibility to not be raped on the women, a despicable idea and c. as someone else posted, if a woman fights back when being raped, they are more likely to be killed or hurt badly.

Are you saying that the Christian marriages you know aren't respecful of enjoyable? Are the wives unhappy that their husband supports the family? I think my wife would be pretty ticked off if I stopped protecting and supporting the family.

No, you cut off the following sentence of mine, to make a point that was never my intent Mike. Not fair hey? I said afterwards "But to each their own... sucks the bible doesn't give you a choice over who has to submit hey? Why is it the woman?"

So to recap, I said I personally find the Christian marriages I see around me to be distasteful to ME and MY preferences for a partnership. I am sure many of them are happy (though Christian divorce rates are higher than atheist divorce rates interestingly*). But I would not be happy in a typical Christian marriage so it is another strike for Christianity as an acceptable religion to me. If I was a Christian, then I'd get no choice. Why would I chose something that forces me to submit against my will?

I thought you said that you know what the Bible says. It's all there.

I do know what the Bible says and clearly, I interpreted it differently to you. If the word of God is so clear and indisputable, you'd think that there'd only be one interpretation possible hey?

It's a matter of perspective. A child sometimes thinks it's a horrific hardship when they are made to do their chores, are punished or have to suffer the consequences of their own mistakes. Unfortunately, without those things, they end up spoiled rotten and useless. I don't think God wants us to be spoiled rotten and useless.

So God is happy for children to be raped, beaten and killed then hey? Cos those are the kind of horrific hardships I was referring to. You, however, chose to trivialise my point by saying that children find chores a 'horrific hardship'. I am sure God could assist with the stopping of raping and murdering without people being "spoiled rotten and useless".

He tried that.

Because He gives you a choice in the matter. The most rebellious of us wouldn't deny him if it were that easy with everything just handed to us on a silver platter but nothing would be learned and none of it would mean much.

Why not? If I was sure that God existed and was like the Christian God, and I would be doomed to hell for not believing in him, I would certainly start to worship this God for fear of eternal torture and damnation.

Your own open rebellion against God should answer most of your own questions. You are absolutely determined not to do it His way but you think He should do it your way.

We see over and over from the beginning of the Bible to the end that it's exactly our pride and rebellion that necessarily seperates us from God.

No I don't think some mythical being that I don't believe in needs to do it my way. God doesn't exist (well, I can't prove this but I will say 'god doesn't need to exist') to do something my way. I want people like you to stop pushing your views down my throat by campaigning against the right of women to control their own bodies, against homosexual marriage/adoption/so on and so on (which we have already covered). I've asked this before but why cannot you grasp that difference Mike?

*George Barna, "Christians are more likely to experience divorce than are non-Christians," Barna Research Group, 1999-DEC-21 <--George Barna is an evangelical Christian, fyi.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Wordplay.

If one claims everything requires a cause then it follows that god requires a cause.

If you on the other hand claim god always existed then one can claim with equal validity that the universe always existed and god is not necessary for its 'creation'.

These are true and logical statements.

Only if you assume God is constrained as we are. What is time or the concept of beginning and end to God? They are creations of His.

If you just assume scripture contains truth then you can basically just assume anything you want. I have a problem with the 'assuming' part here. We know scripture contains errors and contradictions, why trust any of it?

Who just "assumes"? Personally, I've spent quite a bit of time investigating the arguments of skeptics, liberal Biblical "scholars" and athiests.

I think we all have doubts at times. It may sound crazy but the arguments of skeptics and athiests have been of great help to me at times when I had doubts. They do more to support the truth of scripture than they will ever know.

 

[Sas]

I think we all have doubts at times. It may sound crazy but the arguments of skeptics and athiests have been of great help to me at times when I had doubts. They do more to support the truth of scripture than they will ever know.

Nice to be of service. Creationist websites were instrumental in my "conversion" to atheism, so thanks for returning the favour.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Examples please? Cos I have a Bible right in front of me that has many contradictions. Of course, many Christians over look these contradictions and say they are not actually contradictions, but yea to me it is black and white.

Not only don't I overlook the supposed contradictions, but I've spent a fair amount of time studying them. As I just stated in my last post, the arguments of skeptics have been a great help to me.

On average, women are physically weaker. But not always, I can beat my partner in arm wrestling and lift more weight than him at the gym, for example. Among many other guys over the years.

But yea, the Bible can be and has been on many occasions interpreted as that women are the weaker sex overall (mentally and emotionally for example). Do you personally just believe this Biblical quote is referring only to physical strength Mike?

Not, the Bible isn't refering only to physical strength. God created men and woman different for different roles though each as important and necessary as the other. Two puzzle pieces that are exactly the same won't fit together. A man and woman fit together and make a whole, each having their own individual gifts.

Go back and read what I said as you have clearly misinterpreted. I have done karate for a while and have learned self-defense, so I am not against the idea of courses in self-defense. If, however, I was raped then it would in NO WAY be my fault, even though I have taken self-defense classes. I never said defense classes were a bad idea, just that they a. shouldn't be required in society b. one should not request a woman do something like that so she isn't raped as that is putting the responsibility to not be raped on the women, a despicable idea and c. as someone else posted, if a woman fights back when being raped, they are more likely to be killed or hurt badly.

We've been over this already. Again, my point was that, right or wrong, one has little choice but to take responsibility for their own safety.

No, you cut off the following sentence of mine, to make a point that was never my intent Mike. Not fair hey? I said afterwards "But to each their own... sucks the bible doesn't give you a choice over who has to submit hey? Why is it the woman?"

We've been over this too. Each are given their own responsibilities. I think you choose to look at one as being "over" the other.

So to recap, I said I personally find the Christian marriages I see around me to be distasteful to ME and MY preferences for a partnership. I am sure many of them are happy (though Christian divorce rates are higher than atheist divorce rates interestingly*). But I would not be happy in a typical Christian marriage so it is another strike for Christianity as an acceptable religion to me. If I was a Christian, then I'd get no choice. Why would I chose something that forces me to submit against my will?

I'm not sure what a "typical" Christian marriage is. Within Biblical principle, there's quite a bit of room to have the marriage you want. My wife isn't forced to do anything against her will, though, as I mentioned before, she would be displeased if I quit holding up my end.

I do know what the Bible says and clearly, I interpreted it differently to you. If the word of God is so clear and indisputable, you'd think that there'd only be one interpretation possible hey?

No, I wouldn't think that at all. First of all it just isn't in our nature to agree that completely on anything. Take a simple example. The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is an abomination, yet what are the arguments?...well it doesn't really mean that....or maybe it means some acts but not others...and on and on. The point is that much of the variation on interpretation is just wishful thinking.

Also, to assume that only one interpretation would be possible is to assume that we are meant to have complete understanding right off the bat. I don't think it works that way. We tend to grow in understanding as we become ready and the need arises.

I think that's why critics of the Bible aren't very effective. There are some difficult things in the Bible but they never seem to get that far. They don't understand enough to even ask the tough questions. It's like giving a calculus text to a 3rd grader and asking them to criticize it. They could come up with a lot but it would all be foolish and do nothing but demonstrate their own lack of understanding. There are some unanswered questions in mathematics but the 3rd grader isn't going to find them.

So God is happy for children to be raped, beaten and killed then hey? Cos those are the kind of horrific hardships I was referring to. You, however, chose to trivialise my point by saying that children find chores a 'horrific hardship'. I am sure God could assist with the stopping of raping and murdering without people being "spoiled rotten and useless".

Are those examples of God's doing or examples of sins of people? God tells us not to do those things. Paople choose not to listen and you want to blame God?

Earlier in the thread we went into this subject quite a bit and there is a lot writen on it in the Bible and all over the place.

I want people like you to stop pushing your views down my throat by campaigning against the right of women to control their own bodies, against homosexual marriage/adoption/so on and so on (which we have already covered). I've asked this before but why cannot you grasp that difference Mike?

Your request is unreasonable. You're asking me not to do what I think is right on so many levels.

Besides, pushing views down others throats is what the "left" does best.