Creation vs. Evolution

[Kim]

But that's just it. You don't have it straight at all.

It sounds to me as if your life is a bit of a "trust me" dive.

I mean..... if you have faith that you are following your best belief have at it. however - it IS just faith, it IS just trust.

At the end of the day who's going to get the biggest surprise? The ones who didn't really bother too much with all this faith stuff, or the ones who were sure they were right....but were wrong. Because they WILL be. That's a part of whole deal isn't it? It's too much for lowly man to understand. We have no real say, because we'll never "get it", as hard as we try.

It's a "trust me" dive.

And if I'm going to trust anyway....why not trust that it's all OK, and there's nothing to be afraid of.....except yourself (which is plain dumb when one get's right down to it)

 

[ChilledMammal]

Ok let me guess this straight. All the law in the Old Testament is applicable but Jesus died for everyone's sins and therefore even though you are sinning by working on the Sabbath, allowing disabled people in to the Church and not killing gay people, but because Jesus died for your sins it's ok to do those things?

Why not allow gay people to get married then? You seem to have only picked the sins that are easy for you not to follow to prosecute. How nice for you.

On that note, think I am done here.

Don't give up Saspotato. Your posts have been brilliant. :>

Can someone explain this contrived artificial thing called 'sin' that is mentioned constantly?

Religion is simply about control, make people fear 'hell' and promise them 'heaven' and they'll do just about anything.

So very true. Religions and gods offer people a warm fluffy blanket to wrap around themselves, to answer all those tricky questions, like how did it all start, what happens to me after I die, and why do the innocent suffer. Which in itself is not great, but one could argue no harm done if it makes people feel good, but there is a tremendous amount of harm done when people stop thinking and blindly rely on someone else's words. The most inhumane and cruel and brutal things are done in the name of gods and religion, it is so terribly dangerous when people stop thinking and don't challenge what's around them.

Smart people must challenge their own beliefs, their own indoctrinations, and their own prejudices. Mike you are a smart person.

 

[Soggy]

I'll try.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, 9, lest anyone should boast."

I've quoted that before. The point is that none of us can earn salvation by anything of ourselves. We can't follow all the law but that means sin and sin is death.

Galations 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21, I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."


Jesus fulfilled the law because we can't. Jesus paid for our sins because we can't.


Galations 3:19 "What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promis was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

Read the Gospel of John, Ephesians and Galatians...heck, read all of it.

What does any of that have to do with ignoring some parts of the Old Testament and vehemently adhering to others? How do you decide what the "good" parts are and what the "bad" parts are? Beating your wife and slavery is no longer acceptable behavior, but homosexuality is wrong. You can't have it both ways...Either it is the word of God, or it is not. How do you reconcile that?

 

[kombiguy]

Don't give up Saspotato. Your posts have been brilliant. :>
The most inhumane and cruel and brutal things are done in the name of gods and religion,

Not quite. Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, and Mao were not killing millions of people in the name of religion, but in the name of anti-religion. Between the four of them, they killed what, 40, 50 million people.
Contrast that to the record of religion, which invented hospitals, universities, and in the case of the Irish, preserved civilization for the rest of western Christendom. While not perfect by any means, the record of western Christianity is an admirable one of the power of humanity to rise above the secular and display the best we mortals are capable of.

 

[Sas]

Don't give up Saspotato. Your posts have been brilliant. :>

Haha tks. I think the homosexuality in the Bible argument is getting no where so think I'll give that a rest now.

Not quite. Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, and Mao were not killing millions of people in the name of religion, but in the name of anti-religion. Between the four of them, they killed what, 40, 50 million people.
Contrast that to the record of religion, which invented hospitals, universities, and in the case of the Irish, preserved civilization for the rest of western Christendom. While not perfect by any means, the record of western Christianity is an admirable one of the power of humanity to rise above the secular and display the best we mortals are capable of.

Ok some quick googling should clear up some misinformation in your post kombiguy.

From Hitler in Mein Kampf:

"... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work.""

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

"Human culture and civilization on this continent are inseparably bound up with the presence of the Aryan. If he dies out or declines, the dark veils of an age without culture will again descend on this globe. The undermining of the existence of human culture by the destruction of its bearer seems in the eyes of a folkish philosophy the most execrable crime. Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent Creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise."

So Hilter was religious and a Creationist.

Also Stalin allowed the Orthodox Church in WWII as he believed it would help his cause by promoting patriotism. Not really an atheist thing to do hey?

Mao, well he has no quotes attributed to him regarding his religious beliefs so not sure whether he was an atheist or not. Banning the practice of religion is not necessarily indicative of atheism as basically it helped him remove any competition to his power. Priests and the like have often been powerful in the past so I can see why Mao, even if personally religious, would ban the populace from practising religion. Btw, Mao alone is estimated to have indirectly been responsible for the deaths of over 70 million Chinese but he did so in the name of communism, not atheism. I am sure if religion helped him gain power he would have quickly embraced it... Same with Pol Pot.

But yea, there are many evil people in the world, atheist and religious. However, it is rare that some one will do an evil act in the name of "atheism". I can't think of any off the top of my head so if you have any examples please post them here as I am interested. But we've had the Spanish Inquisition, Catholic v Protestant violence in Ireland, Muslim v Jewish in the Middle East, and so on and so on.

I would argue too that it was not "religion" that invented hospitals and so on, but rather, everyone was religious at the time and thus the Church had the money and influence in which to pursue inventions of that sort.

 

[Warthaug]

Not quite. Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, and Mao were not killing millions of people in the name of religion, but in the name of anti-religion.

Oh look, now the fundamentalists are re-writing history.

Hitler frequently invoked god as justification of what he did - the Aryans were descended directly from god, while the rest of humanity were descended from apes, etc, etc, etc. He publicly declared himself a Christian on numerous occasions, and even went so far as to decry some of Nazisms occult practices. He directly opposed state atheism (i.e. opposed a secular state), and enjoyed fairly close contact with both the Catholic church and Protestant churches.

Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao were all communists.

"Contrast that to the record of religion, which invented hospitals, universities, and in the case of the Irish, preserved civilization for the rest of western Christendom"

There is no evidence religion invented hospitals. There is archaeological evidence of hospitals going back thousands of years; long before any of our modern religions existed.

The first known universities were in ancient Greece and China, with both cultures having them around the same time (400BC-ish). In Greece some were religious, but others were based on distinctly non-religious grounds, like geometry. China's universities were also generally secular. Contrast that to what happened to universities in early Christian history - persecution of university members who didn't toe the churches line, religious restriction of materials which can be taught (a practice, I might add, which continues in many "Christian" schools today), and so forth.

As for "preserving society", I have no idea what you are talking about. If you're referring to the dark ages, then you've got an interesting view on history. The dark ages ended with the restoration of much of the Greek and Roman knowledge; sourced largely from the Muslim and Mediterranean world. This was followed by the age of Enlightenment, which largely involved divesting life of an all-permeating Catholic faith. Of all of Europe, Irland was one of the last nations to experience these things.

Bryan

 

[kombiguy]

Oh look, now the fundamentalists are re-writing history.

Hitler frequently invoked god as justification of what he did - the Aryans were descended directly from god, while the rest of humanity were descended from apes, etc, etc, etc. He publicly declared himself a Christian on numerous occasions, and even went so far as to decry some of Nazisms occult practices. He directly opposed state atheism (i.e. opposed a secular state), and enjoyed fairly close contact with both the Catholic church and Protestant churches.

Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao were all communists.

"Contrast that to the record of religion, which invented hospitals, universities, and in the case of the Irish, preserved civilization for the rest of western Christendom"

There is no evidence religion invented hospitals. There is archaeological evidence of hospitals going back thousands of years; long before any of our modern religions existed.

The first known universities were in ancient Greece and China, with both cultures having them around the same time (400BC-ish). In Greece some were religious, but others were based on distinctly non-religious grounds, like geometry. China's universities were also generally secular. Contrast that to what happened to universities in early Christian history - persecution of university members who didn't toe the churches line, religious restriction of materials which can be taught (a practice, I might add, which continues in many "Christian" schools today), and so forth.

As for "preserving society", I have no idea what you are talking about. If you're referring to the dark ages, then you've got an interesting view on history. The dark ages ended with the restoration of much of the Greek and Roman knowledge; sourced largely from the Muslim and Mediterranean world. This was followed by the age of Enlightenment, which largely involved divesting life of an all-permeating Catholic faith. Of all of Europe, Irland was one of the last nations to experience these things.

Bryan

Fundie? Hardly. Traditional Roman Catholic who, BTW, accepts evolution. The fact that Hitler said he was a Christian doesn't make him one, anymore than my saying I'm a brain surgeon makes me one.

As far as hospitals and universities, I will admit to a euro-centric perspective and plead ignorance as to the state of Chinese civilization. What the Greeks had were hardly universities in the sense we think of them now, although your point about education is well taken.

As for preserving civilization, there is an admirable book entitled "How the Irish Saved Civilization." Written by, I believe, an Irishman, though his name escapes me at the moment. Endorsed by me, another Irishman!

The fact of the matter is that evil, like goodness, has been committed by all manners of people. I am, however, relatively certain that religion has produced more of a positive record than negative, and that the lack of religion has never had as healthy an effect on civilization as its lack.

 

[shoredivr]

What does any of that have to do with ignoring some parts of the Old Testament and vehemently adhering to others? How do you decide what the "good" parts are and what the "bad" parts are? Beating your wife and slavery is no longer acceptable behavior, but homosexuality is wrong. You can't have it both ways...Either it is the word of God, or it is not. How do you reconcile that?

This key point will of course be ignored again....

 

[ChilledMammal]

Not quite. Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, and Mao were not killing millions of people in the name of religion, but in the name of anti-religion. Between the four of them, they killed what, 40, 50 million people.
Contrast that to the record of religion, which invented hospitals, universities, and in the case of the Irish, preserved civilization for the rest of western Christendom. While not perfect by any means, the record of western Christianity is an admirable one of the power of humanity to rise above the secular and display the best we mortals are capable of.

On Wikipedia I found the following description of one of the largest wars in history.

It was called the "Rebellion of Great Peace" and was in China. It was conducted by an army and civil administration led by heterodox Christian convert Hong Xiuquan.

...They tried to institute social reforms, such as strict separation of the sexes, abolition of foot binding, land socialization, "suppression" of private trade, and the replacement of Confucianism, Buddhism and Chinese folk religion by a form of Christianity, holding that Hong Xiuquan was the younger brother of Jesus Christ.

...With an estimated death toll of between 20 and 30 million due to warfare and resulting starvation, this civil war ranks as one of the bloodiest in history.

And our favorite leader who has used religion to help him go to war. Guess who?

"One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."
George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq' | World news | The Guardian

Religion is used as a tool to control people. It has caused more destruction than it has good, it tries to repaint history to put itself in the best light. It is responsible for the irrevocable destruction of cultures, traditions and knowledge.

 

[kombiguy]

On Wikipedia I found the following description of one of the largest wars in history.

It was called the "Rebellion of Great Peace" and was in China. It was conducted by an army and civil administration led by heterodox Christian convert Hong Xiuquan.

...They tried to institute social reforms, such as strict separation of the sexes, abolition of foot binding, land socialization, "suppression" of private trade, and the replacement of Confucianism, Buddhism and Chinese folk religion by a form of Christianity, holding that Hong Xiuquan was the younger brother of Jesus Christ.

...With an estimated death toll of between 20 and 30 million due to warfare and resulting starvation, this civil war ranks as one of the bloodiest in history.

Wikipedia also reports that between 1850-1900 200 million people died as a result of natural disasters or political upheaval. If only half of that 200 million were the reults of politics, it would still dwarf the 20-30 million you claim in this "rebellion."

While I don't claim, and never have, that religion is perfect, I can state that it has done far more for the world than any other influence. The world's most beautiful piece of music, in my opinion, Mozart's Requiem, was a religiously inspired piece. The world's greatest art, architecture, and music have all been religiously influenced. Religious people have been scientists, humanitarians, healers and teachers. The world is full of great examples of religious behavior that dwarf the angry cries of those who claim religion is evil.