Creation vs. Evolution

[Warthaug]

I do not dismiss those judges or the constitution that they are supposed to basing their ruling on. It does sound like you dismiss the will of the people though? Maybe you would rather have a dictator?

I don't dismiss it, but I do acknowledge that "the people" can, and do, often support opinions which tread on the rights of others. Which is why we have judges, politicians, constitutions and entrenched rights - they serve as a "buffer" between the base instincts of society and the higher morals we claim to base our society on.

As for dictators - lets just say I see little difference between a single individual or a group of individuals pushing an unjust, unconstitutional and inequitable law.

Bryan

 

[Potapko]

Quotes from some famous ................atheists? Why start a new thread?

Stephen Hawking isn’t a fool. He believes in God.

Look at what he said about Him: “It would be very difficult to explain why the universe should have begun in just this way, except as the act of a God who intended to create beings like us.” Stephen Hawking (A Brief History of Time: From the Big Bang to Black Holes [New York: Bantam Books, 1988], p. 127).

He also said, “The odds against a universe like ours coming out of something like the Big Bang are enormous. I think there are clearly religious implications” (John Boslough, Stephen Hawking's Universe, p. 121)

A Renewed Respect for Voltaire

The website of an atheist group, which refers to itself as “Wonderful atheists,” states, “This compilation of quotes, from some of the world’s greatest thinkers, gives me hope that our battle is just.” The list, at first glance, looks impressive.

It’s packed full of quotes from "just" fighters for truth--men like Karl Marx, Marilyn Manson, and Satanist Anton LaVey.

Of course, one of the world’s greatest thinkers, Albert Einstein, is at the top of the list. But for some reason they don't quote him saying how he hated being quoted by atheists: "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." Albert wasn't stupid. He believed in the existence of God. He said, “I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details.” (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p.202)

They quoted Thomas Jefferson (who also believed in God). They quoted free thinker Mark Twain (who believed in God, but justifiably hated established religion). Walt Disney is listed. So are Helen Keller (who also said, “I try to increase the power God has given me to see the best in everything and every one, and make that Best a part of my life&#8221, Galileo, and Charles Darwin. Each of these people were called “great thinkers” and none of them were stupid. They believed in God.

However, many of those quoted railed against organized religion. It seems strange that they didn’t quote Jesus Christ, who railed against the religious leaders of His day, asking them how they were going escape the damnation of Hell. So did John the Baptist. He called the religious leaders a “brood of vipers,” and asked, “Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?”

The atheists of course quoted the French author and playwright Voltaire. They then said of him: “Perhaps never really an atheist, nonetheless, Voltaire changed late in life into a fearless crusader against religious cruelty and injustice. In Voltaire’s time it was forbidden to be an Atheist. Admitting to be one, brought the death sentence. Hence he was a Deist for most of his life.”

So, according to them, Voltaire was probably a secret atheist who pretended to believe in God. That seems to clash with his own thoughts on atheists. This is what Voltaire said of them: “The atheists are for the most part impudent and misguided scholars who reason badly, and who not being able to understand the creation, the origin of evil, and other difficulties, have recourse to the hypothesis of the eternity of things and of inevitability.” He hated organized religion as any self-respecting and thinking person should, and he thought that atheists were rude, misguided folks who didn’t know how to reason. Wow. I have a renewed respect for the man.

He also said, “What conclusion shall we draw from all this? That atheism is a very pernicious monster in those who govern; that it is also pernicious in the persons around statesmen, although their lives may be innocent, because from their cabinets it may pierce right to the statesmen themselves; that if it is not so deadly as fanaticism, it is nearly always fatal to virtue . . . If there are atheists, whom must one blame, if not the mercenary tyrants of souls, who, making us revolt against their knaveries, force a few weak minds to deny the God whom these monsters dishonor” (A Philosophical Dictionary by Voltaire).

Atheists are "impudent," "misguided scholars," who "reason badly" and are "pernicious."

Sort of hits the nails on their heads I'd say.

 

[Thalassamania]

Once again you are taking quotes out of context and make the absurd assumption that the quoted word "god" has anything to do with your "God."

All of the people that you mention are/were repulsed in the extreme by the sort of "god" that you believe in, as are most of us here. You do great violence to truth, and to the reputation of great men, and to all of our digestions.

 

[Gombessa]

I attended a lecture by Stephen Hawking a couple of years ago, and he specifically called out that quote you used - it was wholly out of context, and the complete quote went on to say how improbable the entire "design" argument was.

 

[sheck33]

Quotes from some famous ................atheists? Why start a new thread?

Stephen Hawking isn’t a fool. He believes in God.

Look at what he said about Him: “It would be very difficult to explain why the universe should have begun in just this way, except as the act of a God who intended to create beings like us.” Stephen Hawking (A Brief History of Time: From the Big Bang to Black Holes [New York: Bantam Books, 1988], p. 127).

He also said, “The odds against a universe like ours coming out of something like the Big Bang are enormous. I think there are clearly religious implications” (John Boslough, Stephen Hawking's Universe, p. 121)

A Renewed Respect for Voltaire

The website of an atheist group, which refers to itself as “Wonderful atheists,” states, “This compilation of quotes, from some of the world’s greatest thinkers, gives me hope that our battle is just.” The list, at first glance, looks impressive.

It’s packed full of quotes from "just" fighters for truth--men like Karl Marx, Marilyn Manson, and Satanist Anton LaVey.

Of course, one of the world’s greatest thinkers, Albert Einstein, is at the top of the list. But for some reason they don't quote him saying how he hated being quoted by atheists: "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." Albert wasn't stupid. He believed in the existence of God. He said, “I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details.” (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p.202)

They quoted Thomas Jefferson (who also believed in God). They quoted free thinker Mark Twain (who believed in God, but justifiably hated established religion). Walt Disney is listed. So are Helen Keller (who also said, “I try to increase the power God has given me to see the best in everything and every one, and make that Best a part of my life”), Galileo, and Charles Darwin. Each of these people were called “great thinkers” and none of them were stupid. They believed in God.

However, many of those quoted railed against organized religion. It seems strange that they didn’t quote Jesus Christ, who railed against the religious leaders of His day, asking them how they were going escape the damnation of Hell. So did John the Baptist. He called the religious leaders a “brood of vipers,” and asked, “Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?”

The atheists of course quoted the French author and playwright Voltaire. They then said of him: “Perhaps never really an atheist, nonetheless, Voltaire changed late in life into a fearless crusader against religious cruelty and injustice. In Voltaire’s time it was forbidden to be an Atheist. Admitting to be one, brought the death sentence. Hence he was a Deist for most of his life.”

So, according to them, Voltaire was probably a secret atheist who pretended to believe in God. That seems to clash with his own thoughts on atheists. This is what Voltaire said of them: “The atheists are for the most part impudent and misguided scholars who reason badly, and who not being able to understand the creation, the origin of evil, and other difficulties, have recourse to the hypothesis of the eternity of things and of inevitability.” He hated organized religion as any self-respecting and thinking person should, and he thought that atheists were rude, misguided folks who didn’t know how to reason. Wow. I have a renewed respect for the man.

He also said, “What conclusion shall we draw from all this? That atheism is a very pernicious monster in those who govern; that it is also pernicious in the persons around statesmen, although their lives may be innocent, because from their cabinets it may pierce right to the statesmen themselves; that if it is not so deadly as fanaticism, it is nearly always fatal to virtue . . . If there are atheists, whom must one blame, if not the mercenary tyrants of souls, who, making us revolt against their knaveries, force a few weak minds to deny the God whom these monsters dishonor” (A Philosophical Dictionary by Voltaire).

Atheists are "impudent," "misguided scholars," who "reason badly" and are "pernicious."

Sort of hits the nails on their heads I'd say.

How incredibly arrogant. Then again, religieus folk are not generally known for the ability to exhibit any kind of logical thinking. I'd prefer being a 'misguided' atheist over a brainwashed, delusional believer, that has to distort or discard scientific fact to save his/her flawed 'arguments', any day.

These thinkers you mention believed in a 'god of the gaps', any gap in mankinds knowledge was 'explained' by attributing the particular phenomenon to a god. Interesting is the fact that more and more gaps are filled and no more god is needed for an 'explanation'. Needles to say, attributing anything to a 'god' is of course not an explanation in the first place. Why one god? who knows, there is just as much evidence for the existence of one god as there is for multiple gods...which would be ZERO evidence.

 

[Thalassamania]

They can't grasp the concept of the "Incredible Shrinking God." Was it Croce who echoed St. Anslem's ontological argument that, "God is that that which is greater than the greatest that we can imagine?"

 

[MikeFerrara]

So aren't homosexuals considered in the above statement? "For it is better to marry than to burn with passion". Interesting that you think that should only apply to straight people.

1Cor 7:2 "Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband."

It doesn't say let each man have his own husband or his own "something". Does it? It says let each man have his own wife. It says "let each woman have her own husband".

In a Biblical context, "same sex marriage" is an oxymoron.

Which is why I invited you to explain how you've made the cross, and asked for Biblical references.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. I didn't make the cross. I would be more than happy to help you try to understand the significance of Christs sacrifice if you're interested and don't already understand but I'm short of time so I'm going to ask you to try to ask specific questions.

 

[Sas]

1Cor 7:2 "Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband."

It doesn't say let each man have his own husband or his own "something". Does it? It says let each man have his own wife. It says "let each woman have her own husband".

It doesn't say in that quote, that homosexual marriage is sinful actually and is just a discussion on heterosexual marriage. And I noticed you haven't quoted the full passage which starts off by saying "It is good for a man not to marry." Then it goes on to say what you have quoted. I notice you're married even though your God says it is more ideal for men to not marry at all. Why would you get married even though God prefers that you don't?

That passage is also followed by this one:

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

So if homosexuals cannot control themselves why should they not be married? The bible says it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. I didn't make the cross. I would be more than happy to help you try to understand the significance of Christs sacrifice if you're interested and don't already understand but I'm short of time so I'm going to ask you to try to ask specific questions.

I have done more than enough Biblical study so I am well aware of how the cross between Old and New Covenant theology can be made but there are a multitude of ways that Christians make the reconciliation so I was asking how you did. Why do you listen to the Old Testament when it comes to homosexuality? But not the law that people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death? Or disabled people not being allowed to attend church? All of the New Testament quotes on homosexuality do not use the general term for homosexuals that was used in that day and it is considered a stretch by many Biblical theologists to use the word "homosexual" so why do you listen to the Old Testament in this case but not any of the other, quite horrific, laws found in the Old Testament?

 

[shoredivr]

I have done more than enough Biblical study so I am well aware of how the cross between Old and New Covenant theology can be made but there are a multitude of ways that Christians make the reconciliation so I was asking how you did. Why do you listen to the Old Testament when it comes to homosexuality? But not the law that people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death? Or disabled people not being allowed to attend church? All of the New Testament quotes on homosexuality do not use the general term for homosexuals that was used in that day and it is considered a stretch by many Biblical theologists to use the word "homosexual" so why do you listen to the Old Testament in this case but not any of the other, quite horrific, laws found in the Old Testament?

How wonderfully logical! The rest of your post is good, too....

 

[Soggy]

so why do you listen to the Old Testament in this case but not any of the other, quite horrific, laws found in the Old Testament?

We've been trying to get an answer to this question for the last 450 pages of posts, but alas, none is ever given.