Could someone tell me?

[Starfish]

I think that as long as the "fin pivot" is part of the curriculumn there isn't a chance to increase visibility. My weighting was all wrong for proper trim, but by-golly I could do a fin pivot for certification. Right after certification I ditched the improper weighting and kept my feet off the bottom and modified my kick.

If a newly certified student sticks to what they were taught, they are feet down, kicking inefficiently, and fin pivot or stand on the bottom all the time.

When I was last diving I watched people kicking the bottom left and right. I quietly mentioned it to a few people, and most started looking behind themselves to see what damage they were doing. Some had no idea how to fix the problem.

Spread the word ladies and gentlemen, please.

And if nothing else, encourage new divers to hover a few feet higher rather then trying to skim the bottom.

 

[Scubamedicjoe]

first i think the instructors need to make more time for more
bouyancy control and most of all i think its the dive organzations that are making the class's too fast these class need to actually need to be longer and more pool time practicing there bouyancy control just my thought as i agree had the weekend ruined due to no visability at lake rawlings people standing, sittings and just poor control in general .

 

[MikeFerrara]

Many of the tillers were not students. In one case, it was an instructor or DM laying a line (I think for a nav dive). He was pulling/clawing his way along the mud bottom. The head up'foot down trim with a wide sweeping flutter kick seems almost universal (even for divers who were certainly not brand new). Even a flutter kick can be performed without silting with a (modified) style and good trim.

What do you all think about aproaching the agencies. Certainly a case can be proven. I wonder what they would do if they had to give or deny approval for such practices.

current quality assurance measures seem designed to catch the blatent standards violations. Shouldn't they look at the quality of the end product, the new diver?

 

[Walter]

"current quality assurance measures seem designed to catch the blatent standards violations. Shouldn't they look at the quality of the end product, the new diver?"

I'll certainly support an attempt to make it so. How can I help?

 

[rusky4u]

Yeah, I`m sure they control the end-…PROFIT !!!!

Seriously, I see what you mean…
Controlling the end product should be (the way I see it…) the typical role of a Divemaster / Instructor, who ever is leading/guiding a dive.

A simple straight forward de-brief after the dive informing the diver about the skills s/he needs to improve and offering real solutions/options on how to improve…
And I`m not saying hard-selling-pushing other courses, just some simple good advise on how to do things properly!
I`ve done it and (most of the times…) people appreciated my comments coz, many times, they just don`t realize they are doing something wrong as they just imitate what everyone does!

The Instructors should also evaluate their student’s skills before issuing further certifications such as Advanced…
And Course Directors should be more demanding on their instructors to be!
And divers should be more committed to learn and practice…
Before finding the solution its far more better to eliminate the problem!

my 2 cents...

 

[jepuskar]

I certainly will agree that techniques should be covered more extensively in the OW program. I am the type of person who goes out and researches things. If I didn't, I would have no problem stirring up the bottom, nor would I know it was wrong, dangerous, and impolite.

Give PADI 1 more month to come out with the ANTI-SILTING SPECIALTY course.

I havent been around a long time, but I am already seeing the ways of the LDS suction factor and the corporate bonanaza provided by PADI. Everything is business!!!

I just bought a brand new dive computer off of the Internet that my LDS was selling for $230 more. Makes me wonder how much money I could have saved...ahhhhhhhhh, i better not think about it.

JP

 

[Rick Murchison]

Aquamaniac once bubbled...
I dont think a student should leave the pool until thay can control bouyancy to a competant level. If that takes an additional 4 weeks of pool dives, then so be it.
Dave

Here's the ugly truth:
You could form an agency with those policies. Of course, you won't get any customers, but at least you'll be the best available until you file bankruptcy.
Rick

 

[Dan Gibson]

Mike,

A lot of them were students this last weekend. Wait for this weekend to see if it is bad. I would bet the number of assembly line classes is down a bit since they will soon be off to warmer waters on their fall break.

I also agree with you that many instructors and DM do stupid things like crawl on the bottom to set a line. I have witnessed it many times.

How can one approach the agency if the instructors don't even believe what is being talked about in this thread? They don't believe there is a problem. I actually had a couple of instructors at a recent meeting say that OW is not the place to learn buoyancy and trim. That comes in AOW. I even had one of the instructors tell me that he dives with 24# whether he is in a 7 mm or swimsuit. That way he does not have to think about it. It is always the same. That is the mentality we will be fighting. I personally would have canned him if I was the owner and he told me these things. I believe these guys think that the class is only about doing the required skills and nothing else. They can't begin to understand that students can actually hover in a reasonably trim position and do the skill. I have found that if the instructor and DM show good skills while around the students, the students will soon try to mock them. It is that simple.

Dan

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Many of the tillers were not students. In one case, it was an instructor or DM laying a line (I think for a nav dive). He was pulling/clawing his way along the mud bottom. The head up'foot down trim with a wide sweeping flutter kick seems almost universal (even for divers who were certainly not brand new). Even a flutter kick can be performed without silting with a (modified) style and good trim.

What do you all think about aproaching the agencies. Certainly a case can be proven. I wonder what they would do if they had to give or deny approval for such practices.

current quality assurance measures seem designed to catch the blatent standards violations. Shouldn't they look at the quality of the end product, the new diver?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Rick, my students are pretty good before we go to open water. It doesn't take 4 weeks. It takes a few extra hours and taking the time to get the weighted correctly and instruct them on technique. My OW classes do not make a mess of the dive site. Do we get an occasional misplaced fin? Yes. But do they leave a uninterupted trail (which is what I am talking about)? No, not even close. I have student divers comment on the p[oor technique they see after their very first OW dive. I have students better than some of the instructors I see.

It isn't just instructors and students from one agency. As far as I can tell it's all of them. If divers can't stay out of the muck we ARE doing something wrong PERIOD.

Walter and other instructors - I would like to do something? start some kind of dialog with the agencies? Maybe they don't care if this is the useless junk we are teaching. I that's the case I would like to hear them say that. Then I could leave it be and quit teaching (to avoid associating my name with shlocks)

Maybe we need an agency who, in a meaningfull way, enforced their own standards. After all don't standards require streamlined equipment, proper weighting and the ability to control depth and direction?

Of course the shlocks will argue that things are great the way they are. Those are the one who are happy with their sales volumes and need to get students out of the pool in six hours. The ones who don't have or won't pay an instructor who can stay off the bottom.

I would like to hear more ideas from some of the other instructors here. Walter, Dan and any others who know that with a reasonable and honest effort a qualified (one who can demonstrate good technique) the end result can be much better. I think what is called for is some publicity combined with some kind of dialog with one or more agencies. I'm open to suggestions. The worst part is that many of these divers dive the same way through their entire career because they don't see anything else. The instructors and DM's should be setting an example for others to follow and they are not.

 

[MSilvia]

even if this practice is convenient, wouldn't it be a good idea, at the very least, to ask students to TRY to do it while hovering? If they can't, allow them to do it while kneeling, tell them they need work on bouyancy control, and let them know you'll pass them on the skill completion, but don't want to see them making a habit of it. The same goes with fin pivots... let them know it's not okay to contact the bottom as a standard practice.

I kneeled and pivoted when I did my OW checkout back in the day, and it was literally years before I ever realized that was a problem. It only would have taken mentioning it to get me to practice better technique.

Rick Murchison once bubbled...
Kneeling, on a platform there for the purpose, is an efficient way to get beginners through their regulator retrieval/clearing, mask clearing, weightbelt off & on & BC off & on without stirring up the surrounding bottom.
Everything else y'all are whinin' about needs fixing, but if you want to see a real flailex, try taking students on their first open water dives without letting them use the bottom for stability.
Rick