Cost of GUE fundies

[PfcAJ]

What do you mean by stopping? If you mean maintaining your position in the water - I'd say it was important. If you mean you can do it without moving a fin then I think it's over the top. As a side note - I find being head down much better for looking at stuff than being in trim.



I often backfin slightly when doing shutdown drills. I don't disturb silt, and I don't lose anyone, or lose the line. It's perfectly functional.

I don't want to get into willy waving - but I've done a fair bit of deco in my time, and a couple of hours of deco is not that uncommon. I manage without the buffer when I chose to do so. As do most people. If you need the "buffer" I'd argue that you are not ready for technical diving.



What does it add? How is it safer? And what makes you think you know more than they did? I don't like GI... I think he was a despicable man who should be ashamed of himself. But I'll never know as much as he did. I'll never be able to think about doing the dives he did. And I wouldn't dream of saying I knew better than the founders of DIR.

As a side note - and not meaning to be pedantic. But on which open water course are you doing shut down drills in trim, mid-water whilst not moving your fins?

I mean stopping movement. If you *cant* stop without kicking yer flippers (especially at the tech level) your skills aren't up to snuff. Everything you do in the water should be your choice. OW divers should strive for that, too.

Why do you backfin? Just...stop. Then you don't have to do anything! Your flippers have nothing to do with twisting knobs. Remove them from the equation.

"I don't want to get into willy waving"...proceeds to willy wave....

I can deco upside down and backwards dude. It makes it easier to deco when flat. Why make my life harder?

What makes me think I know more than they did? Weve had time to accumulate knowledge since then. All kinds of stuff went on during the gensis of DIR that doesn't fly today.

Not sure if by "open water" you mean like an entry scuba class or an open ocean decompression class, but on a t2 course if your flippers are goin' when they don't need to be goin' it'll be brought up. It's not pretty when someone's fins are moving and they're moving toward the team, away from the team, up, down, in a circle, etc. All you gotta do is take your feet out of gear and stop moving.

 

[HantsDiver]

What makes me think I know more than they did? Weve had time to accumulate knowledge since then. All kinds of stuff went on during the gensis of DIR that doesn't fly today.

What exactly? I do lots of stuff personally that doesn't fly - but that stuff would mean I couldn't take a GUE course or would fail it.

My point about willy waving doesn't mean I think I'm a good diver. I'm average. I just focus on what matters to me and keeps me safe.

Not sure if by "open water" you mean like an entry scuba class or an open ocean decompression class, but on a t2 course if your flippers are goin' when they don't need to be goin' it'll be brought up. It's not pretty when someone's fins are moving and they're moving toward the team, away from the team, up, down, in a circle, etc. All you gotta do is take your feet out of gear and stop moving.

I have not done T2 so can't comment. I dive with a few Tech2 divers (and instructors from that agency) who will happily do their deco out of trim. Especially since some of them are moving over to JJ's. I've not done dives with the person who's initials are the same as the rebreather - but those who I know who have tell me he would do the same. Given he can teach T2 tells me that it isn't a drama.

 

[PfcAJ]

What exactly? I do lots of stuff personally that doesn't fly - but that stuff would mean I couldn't take a GUE course or would fail it.

My point about willy waving doesn't mean I think I'm a good diver. I'm average. I just focus on what matters to me and keeps me safe.



I have not done T2 so can't comment. I dive with a few Tech2 divers (and instructors from that agency) who will happily do their deco out of trim. Especially since some of them are moving over to JJ's. I've done dives with the person who's initials are the same as the rebreather - but those who I know who have tell me he would do the same. Given he can teach T2 tells me that it isn't a drama.

Colored bands to denote gas in stage and deco bottles, highly suspect deco procedures, flat pockets on the right side (no one does that anymore), weak trimixes, yoke regulators. We've evolved since then.

Willy waving isn't going to do you any favors with me or help your points be more convincing.

My point about being flat is that you should be in control and able to be in whatever position you want. I don't really care who does deco in what position, the guys youre referencing have the ability to be flat if they so choose. If you can't have a default of flat and still you need some polish. Nothing wrong with that. Pobodys nerfect.

That's cool that you dove with someone. Neat.jpg

 

[Ayisha]

I've done dives with the person who's initials are the same as the rebreather - but those who I know who have tell me he would do the same.

I'm pretty sure you mean you "haven't done dives with" JJ - "but those who I know who have..." bold added

So you should correct your post.

 

[Schwob]

I am lost, could you please explain to me:

a.) Assume I take a tank (or two), a BP&W, gear, me, exposure protection and work to rig that up such that I am trimmed out throughout the useable gas range, which we all agree is possible.

b.) I do all the same, including the trim out work, except with a BCD in which ever way I may have to get greative with weight distribution (around ankles or valve neck if need be) does not matter I trim it out. We can agree that can be done - right?
Even if my body composition is funny and seemingly incompatible with that BCDs weight pocket placements, between trim pockets on camband, weight pockets and with creativity that can be done - we can agree on that - right?

So, now, I switch from "a" to "b" and vice versa and again... we can agree that can be done and I would be in trim each time, right?

So, what is the argument about then?
Different body composition between those that put on a BCD and are in trim w/o once having to figure out how to trim it out and those that do need to figure that out once?

I do not mean to be funny or ignorant, also I feel a bit like maybe I am the latter... I am just trying to understand what actually is argued in the posts arguing something can or cannot be done in a BCD... and once I got that what I possibly might learn from it.

 

[HantsDiver]

I'm pretty sure you mean you "haven't done dives with" JJ - "but those who I know who have..." bold added

So you should correct your post.

Correct - I meant I have not. One word can make a big difference.

 

[beester]

I am lost, could you please explain to me:

a.) Assume I take a tank (or two), a BP&W, gear, me, exposure protection and work to rig that up such that I am trimmed out throughout the useable gas range, which we all agree is possible.

b.) I do all the same, including the trim out work, except with a BCD in which ever way I may have to get greative with weight distribution (around ankles or valve neck if need be) does not matter I trim it out. We can agree that can be done - right?
Even if my body composition is funny and seemingly incompatible with that BCDs weight pocket placements, between trim pockets on camband, weight pockets and with creativity that can be done - we can agree on that - right?

So, now, I switch from "a" to "b" and vice versa and again... we can agree that can be done and I would be in trim each time, right?

So, what is the argument about then?
Different body composition between those that put on a BCD and are in trim w/o once having to figure out how to trim it out and those that do need to figure that out once?

I do not mean to be funny or ignorant, also I feel a bit like maybe I am the latter... I am just trying to understand what actually is argued in the posts arguing something can or cannot be done in a BCD... and once I got that what I possibly might learn from it.

Heya Schwob... I think this post progressed from being about the excessive cost of a fundies in Australia (and us all commenting on that) into 2 different (off) topics. Both unfortunately started by me or people reacting on what I have written.

1) Me stating that it's much easier to learn someone to be in trim using a bp/wing than a bcd. I am a recreational instructor and next to that a GUE tech diver and that is my honest opinion. Some people believe I'm stating it is impossible to be in trim in a bcd but I never said that. Some good remarks regarding correctly weighing and it's positive contribution to trim and buoyancy have been made. Once a BP has been correctly setup it doesn't move relative to your point of gravity. So it's much easier to start from good weighing and a correctly setup BP then a BCD because the point of gravity and the bubble (your bcd bladder) are different relatieve to eachother in every single BCD model.

Look this november I'm going rec diving on a red sea liveaboard. I'll be diving a 3mm wetsuit instead of my regular drysuit... I'll be diving my BP/W but I'll be still out of trim if I use the same equipment. I need to change my heavy jetfins to something lighter because with a 3mm wetsuit with those heavy fins I would be out of trim. I obviously can manage my trim even with those fins using my body position (head position, arms, legs) and using fin kicks... but if I would stay motionless I would slowly tilt to a vertical fins down position.

That get's me to the 2nd point:

2) Somewhere in the argument it moved into why it's important to be able to hover motionless in trim (whatever that is) without assistance of your body and kicks. Obviously the merrits are bigger in tech diving than in recreational diving, but I know some kick ass video and photographers who use this a lot in their endeavours without ever tech diving. My opinion is that horizontal trim has a lot of benefits in diving and even though there is not a measuring stick used or underwater gestapo to check you are perfect 100% horizontal in my experience most will do their ascends in blue water more or less horizontally (up to let's say 20° off). During wreck penetration or in caves it totally depends on your profile of course. I might be decoing out in a cave just on the ceiling... drysuit valve closed and nicely pumped up... so I snug up to the cave ceiling.

However it's not difficult, and being able to stay motionless while doing other stuff (shooting an smb, tank rotation, gas switch, writing in your wetnotes, etc, etc etc) has benefits.

 

[beester]

What exactly? I do lots of stuff personally that doesn't fly - but that stuff would mean I couldn't take a GUE course or would fail it.

My point about willy waving doesn't mean I think I'm a good diver. I'm average. I just focus on what matters to me and keeps me safe.



I have not done T2 so can't comment. I dive with a few Tech2 divers (and instructors from that agency) who will happily do their deco out of trim. Especially since some of them are moving over to JJ's. I've not done dives with the person who's initials are the same as the rebreather - but those who I know who have tell me he would do the same. Given he can teach T2 tells me that it isn't a drama.

Hantsdiver... I'm sorry but your profile is not very well filled in, so I don't really know where you are coming from (only that you are 24 years old and PADI trained).... but rest assure, I have dived or am on personal speaking terms with every UK based GUE instructor (above fundies) and the same goes for many other GUE instructors. I've dived with a lot of them and while they are very easy when it comes to trim as long as it gets the job done. While they are not putting a measuring stick next to your or their trim while running deco, their normal resting deco position is always more or less in trim and the same goes for most GUE divers I know. When you are well setup it's just an easy comfortable position to be in. Without fin kicking, without hands moving..

PS: That's the advantage of being such a tight nit small community. You tend to run into a lot of those instructors from time to time...
PPS: Me and 4 of my buddies are taking the GUE JJ course next year, probably with one of the UK GUE instructors... just saying
PPPS: Looking at the typical diameter of condom catheders we all tend to have quite small willies so no need to wiggle them about

 

[HantsDiver]

PPS: Me and 4 of my buddies are taking the GUE JJ course next year, probably with one of the UK GUE instructors... just saying

Which one JK or GB? And where are you doing it?

And your right - my profile isn't filled in very much. I like it that way.

 

[diver257a]

My lds has started offering GUE fundies and I am interested in attempting a rec pass. I am located in Qld Australia and the course cost is $1800aud plus $90usd for the cert card. To me this seems quite high. What does the same course cost in your area?

Hi Chris

I live in South Australia where I did Fundies (Rec pass) in 2011. One of my local dive stores had a GUE instructor on staff until January this year - this guy use to charge about AUD700-800 per student for Fundies. Therefore, AUD 1800 does sound expensive to me.

I think a test of the reasonableness of the AUD1800 price is to look at the cost of doing the course elsewhere in Australia. This would mean additional costs for you in respect to travel and accommodation. For example, two of the above posts stated the following - “AUD1195 at scubaworld on the sunshine coast…” and “Fwiw dive center bondi does it for $1150.”

Using Scubaworld as an example, additional costs are likely:

1. In a previous thread, you said that you worked at Heron Island which means you either live on the island or in Gladstone on the mainland; both are about 440 km north of Scubaworld which is probably the nearest store to you. The cost of travel by car to and from Scubaworld is likely be in the range of AUD100-150 depending on what type of vehicle that you use.
2. Scubaworld offers accommodation from AUD125 per night which adds up to AUD500 for a four day course.

This means Fundies at Scubaworld could cost somewhere between AUD1795 to AUD1845.

AUD1195 at scubaworld on the sunshine coast mate

I looked at the following page on the Scubaworld website and noticed that it states that the prerequisites are “Open Water, Nitrox & Perfect Buoyancy certifications” - GUE Fundamentals Course on the Sunshine Coast. This is not correct because GUE only requires one to “be certified, at minimum, as an autonomous entry-level scuba diver (or equivalent) from a recognized training agency” and the Fundies does include instruction in the use of nitrox and the perfection of one’s buoyancy. Please refer pages 36-37 in the following document - https://www.gue.com/files/Standards_and_Procedures/GUE-Standards-v8.pdf