Cost for an instructor to certify someone

[Esprise Me]

Volunteering as part of a program that supports you is a world apart from doing it on your own. As an attorney I do a fair amount of pro bono legal work, but only in the form of working with an organization that specializes in providing those services. I would not just take on a friend or family member's entire case. Some folks are set up as solo practitioners and already have the private office space for those privileged conversations, the support staff and other necessary resources, the experience with all aspects of handling a case from start to finish, and the liability insurance to cover everything they do. I'm not, and I'm not prepared to create and support so much overhead just to give away my time. But I'm happy to volunteer discrete chunks of my time to an organization that will, well, organize everything.

Similarly, if I lived somewhere with a volunteer/ club-based instruction model for diving, I could see myself going that route. But what I'm hearing from instructors here is that being an instructor comes with significant startup costs as well as ongoing fees and risk, such that it's tough to break even charging market rates. Therefore, volunteering your time would probably actually cost you money. My point in my earlier post is that, if you're going to invest that kind of time and money, you should be aware that it might not produce the rewards you were hoping for, not that no one should ever do it. If you help out your friends at significant personal cost with the unspoken expectation that you're going to be dive buddies and have a lifetime of fun together, you may find yourself resentful if they never dive again. Is that a risk you want to take with your friendships?

 

[TMHeimer]

Volunteering and the European Club situation are different situations than "going pro" with PADI or other agencies. Agree both should be respected--apples & oranges. If working for a shop, charter or independently and considering one's self a "pro", regular salary should be part of that. There are exceptions. If I were an instructor I may well teach a family member free of charge (I would definately not do it if I were to be in the red). Doesn't mean you have to do that for everyone you know that asks you for the freebee. A fellow SB member asked me to be his "guide" a few years ago. No problem. I too enjoyed the "pleasure" dive and just acted as the leader. he paid for my gas, so I broke even (or even ahead since If by myself I'd have paid that).
I also have played in a couple of jazz groups either gratis or for free beer. But, I am a pro classical musician and not so regarding jazz. There are exceptions, but I never assisted on an OW course without paid salary.

 

[Angelo Farina]

@Angelo Farina

I'm curious, what sort of liability insurance do you need to carry as a volunteer instructor in Italy? Do you also need to carry insurance for 7 years after you stop teaching?

That may be a significant difference. The United States may be a more litigious society than Italy.

In Italy you are only responsible of penal misconduit.
The civil responsability (money) is entirely on the course organizer, the club.
Hence the instructor has no liability, except in case he commits a crime and gets definitely condemned for it.So no insurance is required. And the instructor does not risk anything when operating as a volunteer through a no-profit club.
Remember, most volunteers here are not scuba instructors. They are paramedics working on ambulances and in hospitals. They face death every day. How could they operate under the risk of being sued whenever some one dies in their hands, possibly as a ditect consequence of their actions?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

In Italy you are only responsible of penal misconduit.
The civil responsability (money) is entirely on the course organizer, the club.
Hence the instructor has no liability, except in case he commits a crime and gets definitely condemned for it.So no insurance is required. And the instructor does not risk anything when operating as a volunteer through a no-profit club.
Remember, most volunteers here are not scuba instructors. They are paramedics working on ambulances and in hospitals. They face death every day. How could they operate under the risk of being sued whenever some one dies in their hands, possibly as a ditect consequence of their actions?

I knew this was the answer, but I knew you'd also articulate it quite well, like you do on any topic you comment upon.

I am not aware of any club based training here in the US. It is all privatized and has liability that one doesn't face in Europe. Agencies tell us that we need to keep records for 7 years, as if there is an accident with a former student, the last certifying instructor may be requested to provide training records. Since that person has insurance, the plaintiff will attempt to cash in on that policy. If the poor sap doesn't, that person is going to regret ever becoming an instructor as it is going to cost them dearly.

 

[yle]

Many dive shops charge around the same, but I'm curious how much various agencies charge the instructor to register a certification.

If an instructor certified a friend, how much would they charge them to break even (considering their time a donation)?

To answer your question directly... if I wanted to certify a friend as a PADI OW diver with minimal cost, I would:

Have the friend get a copy of the PADI OW manual (requirement of the class... the friend can instead pay for online, but I stipulated minimal cost.) If I wanted to go super saver, I could just give them one of the several copies I have laying around.

Use the friend's pool in their backyard. Or use someone's pool. Maybe my own (it's pretty small, but could work for just a one-on-one.)

Let the friend use some of my gear. I have too much of it, some of it is brand new. Too much of it is brand new... <<sigh>>

Pay $5 a fill for air. I'd estimate we'd need 14 fills... 7 for each of us (4 for the ow dives, generously estimating 3 for the pool.)

After we did four dives from the beach over two days, I'd pay PADI $30 for the processing fee for his cert.

So there it is. No gas or mileage for me to and from the beach because the friend would drive. And he'd buy lunch and beers after the diving. Total cost would be $70 for air fills and $30 for the processing fee to PADI.

Might be worth noting, a couple years ago I did get a friend of mine his AOW cert this way. He used my gear, I gave him a copy of the AOW book, there was no pool work, we went diving. We had a great five dives together, he took care of the driving. A while ago he had spent a year in Afghanistan and then joined the local PD, so the whole time we were hanging out he told stories about his experiences on the job.

I don't remember who paid for the air fills... but it doesn't matter. It was a great deal for both of us.

 

[yle]

FWIW, even if I was an instructor (which may very well be on my path, if years down the road) I don't anticipate doing what you're talking about. I personally think that the material is too important to be conveyed in a "friend" atmosphere. I think having a formal structure to the class and well-defined roles of instructor and student is integral to conveying the seriousness and potential consequences of the sport.

I'm going to disagree with your assumption that just because a instructor is a friend, the "student" is incapable of taking the material seriously. In fact, if the instructor knows the person well they are even better prepared to judge in advance whether or not they are capable of giving the course the required attention.

I know there are some instructors that claim they would never try to teach family or friends, but I've done both and never had a problem. Why? Because I can tell if a friend or family member is or is not going to be serious enough to do the necessary work. And if not, I'd send them to another shop instead!

 

[yle]

I completely agree. I’m mainly curious if I ever go that route. If I ever become a certified instructor it would only be on The side and mainly to be able to be able to train friends and coworkers.

if that’s the case I’d do it at cost because I’mjust trying to have a good time with friends and spread scuba love.

that said it’s looking prohibitively expensive because of liability insurance etc

If your main motivation is to spread "scuba love" to friends and colleagues, this plan will work much better for all of you:

You go diving. Take lots of pictures and/or video, above and below water.

Share the pics and videos with everyone. Regale them with stories of how awesome diving is.

Tell them about how you'd love to be able to put together trips so all of you can go diving together.

Once they've taken the bait, hand them the information from the local dive shop... class schedules, cost, etc.

Or... find out if the local shops offer a free DSD ("discover scuba") in their pool. And send your friends to it.

Much less cost and stress for you, and if your friends aren't willing to pony up the cost of the class... you really don't want to be taking them on dive trips with you anyway.

 

[Barnaby'sDad]

If your main motivation is to spread "scuba love" to friends and colleagues, this plan will work much better for all of you:

You go diving. Take lots of pictures and/or video, above and below water.

Share the pics and videos with everyone. Regale them with stories of how awesome diving is.

Tell them about how you'd love to be able to put together trips so all of you can go diving together.

Once they've taken the bait, hand them the information from the local dive shop... class schedules, cost, etc.

Or... find out if the local shops offer a free DSD ("discover scuba") in their pool. And send your friends to it.

Much less cost and stress for you, and if your friends aren't willing to pony up the cost of the class... you really don't want to be taking them on dive trips with you anyway.

It wasn’t free (I paid ~$60-80), but I started with a DSD. I didn’t want to spend $200+ for personal gear and $500+ for a OW class without at least trying out breathing underwater first.

Three pluses about your friends going that route:

-If they decide to go ahead with the OW class, most shops will apply the money they paid for the DSD towards the balance for the OW class.

-If they try it out and are like “f**k this,” they’re only out a few bucks.

-If your friends aren’t willing to shell out A few bucks for a DSD session...they obviously aren’t that interested in diving. You figure that out without wasting your time and money on them.

 

[wheeledgoat]

I'm going to disagree with your assumption that just because a instructor is a friend, the "student" is incapable of taking the material seriously. In fact, if the instructor knows the person well they are even better prepared to judge in advance whether or not they are capable of giving the course the required attention.

I know there are some instructors that claim they would never try to teach family or friends, but I've done both and never had a problem. Why? Because I can tell if a friend or family member is or is not going to be serious enough to do the necessary work. And if not, I'd send them to another shop instead!

Too bad you didn't read the part of my post that you deleted from your quote. Specifically:

I'm sure there's others out there that can do it, not me.

I'm tempted to make a snarky remark about being an instructor and attention to detail, but since I do my best to refrain from such I'll simply wish you well with observing your students.

 

[yle]

Too bad you didn't read the part of my post that you deleted from your quote. Specifically:


I'm tempted to make a snarky remark about being an instructor and attention to detail, but since I do my best to refrain from such I'll simply wish you well with observing your students.

My apologies... I guess I didn't process what you wrote properly. My brain probably started replying after I read your first sentence and then it ignored the rest of your post. Thanks for calling me on it, I need that every once in a while.