Cookies or arrows?

[limeyx]

...but wouldn't every arrow after the midpoint be an opposing arrow? Would you drop a cookie every 100 feet at a contradicting arrow? At the crossover jump? You would need about a dozen to do the P1 to Olsen traverse if this were the case. How many would you need to set up and complete the Grand Traverse?

I would rather lay 20 cookies than die in a cave because I didn't lay one and accidentally jumped onto another line or got confused in a stress situation with low vis and went back and forth the wrong directions (have you seen how close some of the jumps are in Mx -- you could easily do it in low vis and not know it)

Of course, you could always make the argument that someone else can come in behind you and took out all your cookies (or worse, put them all on the wrong side of the T's you had traversed). Then you are definitely in bigger trouble, but I dont see a hugely good solution in that case.

 

[TSandM]

We asked our instructor specifically if he would put a cookie on every arrow he passed that was pointing the "wrong" way, and he said yes. He says he carries a whole bunch of nondirectional markers on any cave dive for this reason.

 

[Daedalus]

I would rather lay 20 cookies than die in a cave because I didn't lay one and accidentally jumped onto another line or got confused in a stress situation with low vis and went back and forth the wrong directions (have you seen how close some of the jumps are in Mx -- you could easily do it in low vis and not know it)

I would rather learn the cave I was diving rather then go on a line and arrow following expedition where I feel the need to mark something every 50 feet. If you are in vis low enough that making an accidental jump is a concern why are you not OKing the line?

I have never dove in Mexico, but from what I read about the confounding line protocols I wonder whether are designed to ensure employment for guides or to ensure diver safety.

If the jump is less than 5 feet, why isn't it a T or cut back further to prevent this issue?

 

[rjack321]

These are where I think I was taught something different by Danny
I think he wanted us to place an arrow (pointing *with* the other arrows, so not necessarily to our exit) and then place a cookie in the direction we had gone
that way you dont change the cave navigation

For the second case (when refinding the line) Danny definitely wanted us to place a cookie to indicate our direction of exit (and then move the cookie if we discovered we had gone the wrong way and come back)

Yes in the first case I would place an arrow with the general navigation of the cave if I was past the point where they change direction and then place a cookie on the blunt end. I was speaking of the simplistic sense and had not gotten to a portion of the cave where the arrows went the "wrong" way.

In the 2nd case you are right, I misspoke.

 

[PerroneFord]

...but wouldn't every arrow after the midpoint be an opposing arrow? Would you drop a cookie every 100 feet at a contradicting arrow? At the crossover jump? You would need about a dozen to do the P1 to Olsen traverse if this were the case. How many would you need to set up and complete the Grand Traverse?

Please understand that I am at intro, and am new at this game. So for me, I am not doing traverses, circuits, and I couldn't do the Grand Traverse on a CCR. When I take further training I'll be able to better answer your question.

For me now, if I enter a system, and reach a midpoint, I am going to drop a cookie on the exit side of the arrow that points to MY exit. I'll get it when I come back. What I do not expect to see is after crossing the midpoint seeing an arrow facing against the direction of the cave. I won't put one on the line, and I don't expect others to either. Perhaps this is wrong.

 

[rjack321]

I would rather learn the cave I was diving rather then go on a line and arrow following expedition where I feel the need to mark something every 50 feet. If you are in vis low enough that making an accidental jump is a concern why are you not OKing the line?

The arrows tend to be every 200-300ft, not 50ft. In no vis you would rely on your memory of the cave despite having arrows pointing the "wrong way"?

If the jump is less than 5 feet, why isn't it a T or cut back further to prevent this issue?

There are "reach gaps" in NoHoch, maybe 3 or 4 feet between the mainline and the side passage line. They were setup that way during Parker Turner's original exploration. The intent was to not join a side passage line with the mainline but that in no vis you could "reach across" from the end of the side passage to the mainline. One reason I suspect they have not been cut back is to maintain history.

 

[rjack321]

We asked our instructor specifically if he would put a cookie on every arrow he passed that was pointing the "wrong" way, and he said yes. He says he carries a whole bunch of nondirectional markers on any cave dive for this reason.

Yup, like breadcrumbs

 

[rjack321]

He's a stick map of Sac Actun with multiple "<< >" markings. Cenote "No Name" (its actual name) is kinda smushed on the left side of my wetnotes. Both times you transit the "<< >" marks, your closest exit will not be consistent with the "<<" arrows and is in the direction of the single ">" arrow. Hence the liberal use of cookies.

I will scan my map of NoHoch and post that tomorrow to illustrate the plethera of those jumps (all in a 500psi penetration)

 

[strazz]

In no vis you would rely on your memory of the cave despite having arrows pointing the "wrong way"?

Abso-freaking-lutely. Arrows are a backup for your brain, NOT the other way around. If I knows the arrows are supposed to point one way in the part of the cave I'm in and that's the way they're pointing, then I know I'm going the right way.

Should I lose visability at Olsen and want to exit at P1, I know that the arrows point towards me for the first 700 feet and then turn in the middle. Lines, arrows, cookies, and blinking neon signs are no substitute for knowing the cave you're in.

 

[rjack321]

Abso-freaking-lutely. Arrows are a backup for your brain, NOT the other way around. If I knows the arrows are supposed to point one way in the part of the cave I'm in and that's the way they're pointing, then I know I'm going the right way.

Should I lose visability at Olsen and want to exit at P1, I know that the arrows point towards me for the first 700 feet and then turn in the middle. Lines, arrows, cookies, and blinking neon signs are no substitute for knowing the cave you're in.

So basically you ignore them rather than place your own unique markers to maintain a continuous guideline. To me, a guideline isn't much of a line if you are heading the wrong direction on it. I'll place the non-directional markers, its not much time and is more reliable than memory.

I hope you never get turned around in MX there's no flow to orient you. I did once in Temple of Doom, took me about 3 mins and my wetnotes to understand why my brain and the line weren't matching up.