Cookies or arrows?

[PerroneFord]

I will generally lay a cookie on the exit side of an existing (permanent) arrow if I need to. I did a dive Sunday where I placed two arrows. One to indicate the exit at a junction, and one semi-permanent one that will be removed in coming months.

I tend to like the idea of not changing the direction of the cave, particularly in situations where there are multiple exits. If the cave is set up so that the arrows point to the nearest exit (not necessarily YOUR exit, placing opposing arrows could really mess up someone's day. Especially us newbies.

I'll let the rest of you guys hash out the circuits and jumps since I don't fool with that stuff yet other than to recognize them when I see them.

 

[TSandM]

To try to clarify the question, this whole thread was started by a discussion of THIS page and its link.

We didn't get taught much about marking lines, because TDI Intro is mainline navigation only. We were taught to use a non-directional marker to confirm or nullify permanent markings on the line for ourselves. (For example, if we swam along a line to the point where the permanent arrows changed direction, because the nearest exit had changed, we should place a non-directional marker on the blunt end of the arrows, to remind ourselves that this arrow was NOT pointing to OUR exit.) We were taught to use an arrow to tie in an emergency line (lost line search, lost buddy search).

At any rate, the pages cited above came up for discussion elsewhere, and in private discussion with some much more experienced cave divers, we began to wonder whether there was a difference in convention arising from the fact that, in Mexico, there may be so many different exits on a single line, and therefore the potential for a great deal more confusion if directional markers are used in addition to what's already there.

I didn't ask the question very well, and it may not have an answer.

 

[rjack321]

Ok, gotcha that's what I figured you were asking about. I'll skip the poll cause I'm not really sure which button to hit. But my personal marking would be as follows:

Ts and jumps are marked on the outbound side with cookies
Mainline arrow changes are marked with cookies

Lost diver drills I use an arrow to indicate the point at which I have recalculated gas and started back into the cave and also if I have to tie in and search off the mainline.

When refinding the line after lost line, I use an arrow to indicate the direction I've chosen to go.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Ok, gotcha that's what I figured you were asking about. I'll skip the poll cause I'm not really sure which button to hit. But my personal marking would be as follows:

Ts and jumps are marked on the outbound side with cookies
Mainline arrow changes are marked with cookies

Lost diver drills I use an arrow to indicate the point at which I have recalculated gas and started back into the cave and also if I have to tie in and search off the mainline.

When refinding the line after lost line, I use an arrow to indicate the direction I've chosen to go.

That's how I was taught as well.

We were also taught that when making a jump from the mainline at a point where the jump is marked by an arrow on the mainline that pointed to our exit that we could tie into to that arrow as an option to marking with a non-directional.

 

[strazz]

Here are my comments on the linked page:

It's unnecessarily making things more complicated than they are. Ideally, a diver is NOT dependent on the line and the arrows. They're for reference and emergency use. If you don't know where you are in a system (this is assuming a non-exploration dive in a mapped cave, e.g. Peacock or Devil's), then you might want to rethink your decision to go there. The arrows aren't road signs that say "turn here". They're emergency exit markers that say "if you're screwed, the shortest way out is this way". An aware, thinking diver should always note the direction of arrows and use them as a way to determine his location in the system. Multiple exits should not cause a concern.

If you want to mark the side from which you approached a marker, just put a non-directional marker with at least your initials on it. If I were in a system with a lot of exits, I would probably go through a good number of clothes pins on my dive. Ideally, the marker should also be modified so that you can tell it's yours by feel alone. Directional markers have the potential to cause a lot of trouble if you put one on pointing the wrong way or pointing away from the nearest exit--this could cause a lot of problems for you or, worse yet, another team. If a non-directional marker is sufficient, use it.

 

[rjack321]

Multiple exits should not cause a concern.

Should not, but do. At least in MX there are arrows pointing all over the place and the direction may shift a couple of times as you pass by alternate exits (which do not necessarily have guidelines to OW).

You can also get totally crazy markings like this:
<< >

= a jump with one exit one way and another exit the other. IMO under these conditions cookies are more reliable than arrows (or clothespins) since cookies and their relationship to the junction are actually more unique identifiers.

 

[rjack321]

I need to rig up a couple of clothespins someday too. For the unusual or unique "uncookiable" spot.

 

[strazz]

<<>? Jump at the middle of a circuit like on Double Lines at the Sherwood's Split jump. Totally not crazy.

I don't know about you, but it would be pretty hard to forget if I came onto that line from the Siphon Tunnel on the west end or Hill 400 or Skid Row on the east.

If the system is complex and you don't know it, it's just a matter of dropping a cookie or clothes pin. Better yet, practice progressive penetration and learn the cave. Don't just follow the lines.

 

[KMD]

Another thing your poll forgot to ask:

When deciding to mark a point on the line w/ a cookie, do you place one for the team, or does each team member place a cookie?

Kevin

 

[rjack321]

<<>? Jump at the middle of a circuit like on Double Lines at the Sherwood's Split jump. Totally not crazy.

I don't know about you, but it would be pretty hard to forget if I came onto that line from the Siphon Tunnel on the west end or Hill 400 or Skid Row on the east.

Nope that's a double jump (one on either side of the line) in the Taj Maha system. Not part of a circuit, just in-between 2 entrances (although one isn't commonly used, and I'm not sure you could climb out of it). There's another one in Sac Actun at a single (blind) jump. There are a few more than I know about here and there.

Sometime the single arrow points to the closest exit (distance wise) sometimes not. Every MX system I've been in has another exit somewhere, why they are attempting to sometimes mark that fact with "<< >" I dunno.

My point was "O << >" or "<< > O" can actually be alot clearer than even more arrows or how you've oriented your line relative to those arrows.

I do practice progressive penetration, although I don't generally turn around for arrow directional changes like this. I imagine if/when I get to the point where I'm seeing multiple changes (facing my exit, now against my way, now my way again) I'll be backing off to re-dive the system again another day.