Cookies or arrows?

[rookers]

Cookies only, on my exit side, T's and unmarked jumps.

 

[rjack321]

#1 is a terrible idea. #2 is what everybody needs to do.

Personally? I drop markers at Ts and unmarked jumps. I'd use one if I had to do a lost buddy or lost line search, also. They tell me from which way I came (Ts). It's a function of habit, not necessity. It's more of a confirmation that I've comitted something to memory than anything else.

edit: I think that's what we're all trying to say...


I have been in some Mexican systems were wall-to-wall is on the order of 300-400ft. There's no way you can memorize how the cave looks and transits from over "by the wall" cause there's no good reason to go jump over there. The one that comes to mind is NoHoch, the same place with all the confusing reach gaps too. And lastly that system has incredibly fragile formations so you should not be straying from the bubble "sacrifice" area (plus-minus 5ft off the line) to unrealistically try and learn the cave completely. You could, but you'd ultimately destroy the cave in the process.

Thus, you have to follow the line and learn what features and landmarks you can from the immediate line area. If it gets silted out (landowners have been known to dredge cenotes making a huge mess - although not this particular one) you are definately dependent on the line.

Now given the situation where you have established arrows every 2-300ft. And you can pass 2 alternate exits both with arrow direction changes in the process of using only 25cf of gas (nevermind 1/3rds or stages), wouldn't you think it prudent to mark the contradictory arrows and actually maintain directionality in the case of low or no vis? Once you get to the point of doing 100cf penetrations you will (at this rate) have about 8 arrow direction changes.

Sure you should know and expect all of those changes. But people think the darndest things under stress and having personalized the 4 "in" pointing zones is the only backup you have at this point. Yes you have buddies, but having disagreeing buddies happens and so they cannot really act as backups (what objective measure do you have to chose the correct buddy?)

I again refer you to chapter 8 of Gerrard's book where numerous teams got lost and people died due to a navigation error. There's no reason not to have a belt and suspenders approach to the guideline. In order: Brain, line, personal non-directionals for jumps and Ts, personal non-directional markers for exceptions to the established marks.

 

[limeyx]

It's remarkable what one can learn in about 100 cave dives Ginnie over a span of about 18 months.

So I have an interesting question here. And I really am curious about these things. I think the tone of the conversation feels a bit like we are sniping at each other, but that's definitely not the intent.

I am wondering if you dive mainly in Florida ? IF so, and say you went to dive mexico but could only do say 2 weeks per year there.

Would do you do things differently? Would you still feel that you could know the caves as well as the ones in FL ? Would you feel that your extensive FL experience gives you a big enough "edge" that you could pick up the MX caves (or France -- whatever) much more quickly ?

 

[in_cavediver]

I hear a lot of difference between Mx and NFL. Personally, I dive NFL. I will also say, in Peacock, a system I was in last week, if every team wanted to mark each 'contradictory' arrow, the meaning would be useless to all divers. The traffic is high enough and options for travel large enough to have divers use different routes and generate lots of 'bad' arrows to correct. (every 100' is an arrow on the gold lines)

Case in point, simple circuit from P1. Peanut line to crossover to Pothole line. While we were there, two teams did that circuit, one starting on Peanut, one starting on pothole at the same time. Following the 'block' contradictory arrow idea, most of the arrows would be blocked!

My rules are simple. I watch the directional information in the cave, I reference where I am and what I should see and expect in 'low vis' and go from there. I would not have a problem doing touch contact line drill with 'contrary' line arrows if I expected it.

Now, in Little river, when I hit the T's or dorf marker or whatever you want to call the triangles, I drop a non-directional marker for where I came, usually a clothespin since they are cheap and durable enough for the length of the dive. If I get to a place where I really want to mark my path where I might get confused, I have a few customized arrows turned to non-arrows I can ID by feel. I try to limit the line trash I add and pull it as soon as possible.

I really hope other teams try to limit the line trash as well. The more 'junk' there is, the more a poor sap might have to think through a bad situation. Each item on the line has to be ID and referenced as right way, wrong way or junk and in zero vis, you might start second guessing yourself.

 

[Daedalus]

I am wondering if you dive mainly in Florida ? IF so, and say you went to dive mexico but could only do say 2 weeks per year there.

Would do you do things differently? Would you still feel that you could know the caves as well as the ones in FL ? Would you feel that your extensive FL experience gives you a big enough "edge" that you could pick up the MX caves (or France -- whatever) much more quickly ?

I cannot speak for Strazz, but if I were to go somewhere else to cave dive for a 2 week block I would pick a cave and dive that cave alone for the whole two weeks while I learned it. If I had a real interest in the Mexican caves and felt a need to do farther penetrations in multiple caves I would move there.

 

[Kendall Raine]

Nope that's a double jump (one on either side of the line) in the Taj Maha system. Not part of a circuit, just in-between 2 entrances (although one isn't commonly used, and I'm not sure you could climb out of it). There's another one in Sac Actun at a single (blind) jump. There are a few more than I know about here and there.

Sometime the single arrow points to the closest exit (distance wise) sometimes not. Every MX system I've been in has another exit somewhere, why they are attempting to sometimes mark that fact with "<< >" I dunno.

My point was "O << >" or "<< > O" can actually be alot clearer than even more arrows or how you've oriented your line relative to those arrows.

I do practice progressive penetration, although I don't generally turn around for arrow directional changes like this. I imagine if/when I get to the point where I'm seeing multiple changes (facing my exit, now against my way, now my way again) I'll be backing off to re-dive the system again another day.

One reason << > is used in Mexico is to indicate a halfway point between exists with the double arrow pointing to the exit in the same direction as the flow. Like any sign, it's only crazy if you don't know what it means.

 

[strazz]

So I have an interesting question here. And I really am curious about these things. I think the tone of the conversation feels a bit like we are sniping at each other, but that's definitely not the intent.

I am wondering if you dive mainly in Florida ? IF so, and say you went to dive mexico but could only do say 2 weeks per year there.

Would do you do things differently? Would you still feel that you could know the caves as well as the ones in FL ? Would you feel that your extensive FL experience gives you a big enough "edge" that you could pick up the MX caves (or France -- whatever) much more quickly ?

I only dive in NFL for now because I'm a local and a graduate student, so I don't get to travel much. I'm extremely comfortable in local systems because I know parts of them really well. If I were going to Mexico, I'd stick to only a few caves (maybe one per week). I'd pick one and dive the crap out of it for a while before moving on to the next one. Much like it nobody in his right mind would make the Ice Room his first dive in Ginnie (or even 20th), I'd keep the navigation very simple at first and branch out slowly. Without a very long vacation, I'd never be doing huge dives in the cenotes. I just think it's prudent not to do a dive of that magnitude if you don't know the system extremely well. I'd like to see each line a few times before I start doing jumps off of it.

I get in 2+ dives a week, so I'm usually fresh and ready to go. It would give me an advantage over somebody who doesn't get to cave dive regularly as far as not having to fine tune anything, so I might be able to get used to the system a little faster (since I wouldn't be worrying about other things), but probably not a whole lot faster. I wouldn't have any system-specific advantage.

 

[limeyx]

I hear a lot of difference between Mx and NFL. Personally, I dive NFL. I will also say, in Peacock, a system I was in last week, if every team wanted to mark each 'contradictory' arrow, the meaning would be useless to all divers. The traffic is high enough and options for travel large enough to have divers use different routes and generate lots of 'bad' arrows to correct. (every 100' is an arrow on the gold lines)

This is definitely a concern that does not seem to be as big in Mex.
in Mex, we never had more than 1 other team in with us (we had 1 team of 3 or 2 teams of 2) and there honestly aren't that many arrows in the limited amount of cave we get to play in on cave1 limits.

I definitely get the feeling FL is much higher traffic than Mx (at least when I have been in Mx)

 

[rjack321]

One reason << > is used in Mexico is to indicate a halfway point between exists with the double arrow pointing to the exit in the same direction as the flow. Like any sign, it's only crazy if you don't know what it means.

Nope, maybe they meant that at one time. As of last year the meaning was inconsistent. The <<> in downstream Taj Maha has the << pointing downstream.

The <<> in Sac Actun the << points upstream towards Cenote Ho Tul.

I was told that the << generally points towards the closer exit while the < points towards an alternate. But overall the markings are a mess.

 

[do it easy]

Your maps are great! They remind me of the notebook with all the clues in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade