Convert and direct me please!

[sibermike7]

After diving exclusively in the US and Mexico with US gear, I now find myself in Europe. So.Cal was the coldest water (maybe 55F?); now we dive with snow on the ground. Wetsuit before; drysuit now. If that wasn't bad enough, when they asked me what tank I wanted to use, all I could do was look stupid. "Do I want a 15 liter or an 18 liter?" Huh?

The profiles on the 15 liter steels are shorter and larger in diameter than what I was used to in the States.

First of all, I need help converting the numbers. I don't really care to hear all the math about how they have arrived at the numbers (I believe that the US measures volume of air before compression and the European is physical liquid volume of the cylinder). What I do want to know is how big is a 15 liter and 18 liter tank if converted to US measurements and what is the best equivalent. I am only looking at steel tanks as aluminum is virtually unused here. Please tell me what I need.

Secondly, I would like some recommendations of where to obtain these equivalent tanks in the US. We want used tanks at a good price but need to know the questions to ask to make sure we get what we want and also some advice on what would be a very good price. I am assisting a dive shop that provides a lot of instruction as well as for my personal use.

We would like to ship about 6-8 tanks over in a month or 2. Need 4-6 15liters and 2 18liters.

Please enlighten me!
Thanks

 

[El Orans]

3000 L (15L tank at 200 bar) = 105.943 ft³
3600 L (18L tank at 200 bar) = 127.132 ft³

Liters to Cubic Feet conversion calculator

 

[GotNoOcean]

Check the websites of various cylinder manufacturers -- They generally have spec sheets with this info presented both ways -- here's an example from XS Scuba / Worthington cylinders:

 

[DA Aquamaster]

In terms of internal volume an LP 95 is a 15 liter tank. An LP 108 is a 17 liter tank and an LP 120 is a 19 liter tank, etc

It is not possible to entirely divorce that from the math as the fill pressure impacts the usuable volume of gas. For example, the LP 95 is a 14.8 liter tank and holds 95 cu ft at 2640 psi (182 Bar), but it holds 120 cu ft at 3442 psi (232 bar) and 130 cu ft at 3600 psi (248 bar).

 

[sibermike7]

In terms of internal volume an LP 95 is a 15 liter tank. An LP 108 is a 17 liter tank and an LP 120 is a 19 liter tank, etc

It is not possible to entirely divorce that from the math as the fill pressure impacts the usuable volume of gas. For example, the LP 95 is a 14.8 liter tank and holds 95 cu ft at 2640 psi (182 Bar), but it holds 120 cu ft at 3442 psi (232 bar) and 130 cu ft at 3600 psi (248 bar).

I understand that. I didn't want to divorce the math from the equation, I just didn't want a whole bunch of mathematical equations to wade through when I was only trying to accommodate the needs/desires of some folks here in Estonia. They also understand how pressure factors in to the equation. I am just trying to help them get the tanks that they want. Thanks!

The assumption that I am making is that they are rating the 15L tank using a pressure of 200 bar.

 

[widget]

Why do they not want to just source them locally in Europe Sibermike? Is it because they are only looking for 2nd hand cylinders or are the quantities too small for the Italian factories? Virtually all European cylinders are the Italian Fabers, with a few "Roth" in the mix and Faber is not going to entertain an order of 6.

Faber sells to a few distributors in Italy (not equipment manufacturers like the brands) who resell at much better prices for small quantities, shipping costs will be much reduced and they are complete with valve and boot, I could point you to these distributors if you need, just let me know.

Dont forget, the 15 litre and 18 litre Fabers are 204mm in dia, this is not the same as the USA manufactured cylinders and boots are usually not interchangeable, I am also concerned that shipping from the USA the shop is going to end up with cylinders manufactured with a 3/4 inch neck thread and matching valves, whereas Europe is 100 % metricated and only use the M25 X 2 cylinder neck thread - the two valves are obviously not interchangeable and they would certainly experience problems with valve replacements locally.

Europe commonly uses a 200bar "international type" valve, (ie) the valve has a din insert which can be unscrewed to convert the valve from yolk to 200bar din, most European divers are equipped for this set up, you would need to ensure this valve was also on the cylinders ex USA or there could certainly be equipment matching issues, not all European divers have 300 bar din fittings on their regs.

Hope this helps, I dont mean to be pedantic, maybe just keep it in mind when planning.

 

[sibermike7]

Why do they not want to just source them locally in Europe Sibermike?

Even though Estonia is in the EU, getting things here can be expensive. There simply isn't enough market for distributors to bother about. Consequently, things tend to be way more expensive. For example, we were SO glad to see gas get under $6 a gallon recently!

2nd hand cylinders simply do not exist here. It is even difficult to order them from Finland or Sweden without paying through the nose! So you were on the money about some of the reasoning.

Faber sells to a few distributors in Italy (not equipment manufacturers like the brands) who resell at much better prices for small quantities, shipping costs will be much reduced and they are complete with valve and boot, I could point you to these distributors if you need, just let me know.

Please!

I am also concerned that shipping from the USA the shop is going to end up with cylinders manufactured with a 3/4 inch neck thread and matching valves, whereas Europe is 100 % metricated and only use the M25 X 2 cylinder neck thread - the two valves are obviously not interchangeable and they would certainly experience problems with valve replacements locally.

That could present a problem, but we would just have to order the valves from US as well. Actually, we were hoping to get tanks and valves together. And we were hoping that the valves would not need replacing too soon!

Europe commonly uses a 200bar "international type" valve, (ie) the valve has a din insert which can be unscrewed to convert the valve from yolk to 200bar din, most European divers are equipped for this set up, you would need to ensure this valve was also on the cylinders ex USA or there could certainly be equipment matching issues, not all European divers have 300 bar din fittings on their regs.

Most tanks here have din valves and if a diver has a yoke, we simply screw in the insert.

Question: Is is hard (or impossible) to get steel tanks from the US with the 200 bar din valves?

Hope this helps, I dont mean to be pedantic , maybe just keep it in mind when planning.

No problems! You can be pedantic all you want AND you can even bore me with details if need be!

We are simply searching possibilities to get about 6 more tanks at the lowest possible cost. We have a container leaving California in about 6 weeks with some space on it, so shipping would be free. That is why the thought even entered my brain!

I remembered seeing tanks in CA for under $100 bucks all the time. I never paid much attention when I was there. Now I think that they were probably aluminum anyway!

Thanks widget!

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Most tanks sold today in the US come with a convertible 200 bar DIN/K valve. It has an insert that allopws it to be used with a yoke and without it, it will accomodate both 200 and 300 bar DIN regulators.

----

A 15L liter tank at 200 bar (2900 psi) holds 106 cu ft. An 18L tank at 200 bar holds 127 cu ft.

The XS provides specs for Worthington high pressure and low pressure tanks that are considered to be excellent galvanized steel tanks. They are available from a variety of on line and retail sources.

 

[sibermike7]

A 15L liter tank at 200 bar (2900 psi) holds 106 cu ft. An 18L tank at 200 bar holds 127 cu ft.

Thanks DA.
What tanks do you think would be the best replacements for the 15L and 18L? In other words what are the closest US equivalents?

 

[evil_xander]

I think you're missing the big picture here... same reason why you cannot use EU tanks in the US goes vice versa. Sure, you can fill them yourselves, but when the hydro times comes, nobody will touch them legally (or fill them besides your shop).

Try and have EU tanks filled in the US.

Or I could be wrong and they are all in the woods...