Continuing Ed. or just paying to dive..

[TSandM]

Man, I had some sympathy for the OP at the beginning, but I have lost it altogether.

If someone instructs, accepting the liability and responsibility involved therein, they should be remunerated for it if they wish. I have paid almost ridiculous fees in the past for superb instruction in riding, and I have paid some significant fees for diving instruction as well -- again, superb instruction. I have also been the grateful recipient of volunteered time in both disciplines. But I never felt it was incumbent on anybody to volunteer to teach me.

I'm one of the many people who thinks OW ought to be a better class than it is. But I also have said, and it is true, that I would probably not have taken a longer, more involved, or significantly more expensive OW class than I did, because I wasn't even sure I wanted to DO this. If the OP wants an OW class that includes everything that is taught in OW, AOW and Rescue, he has to be prepared to pay for it -- And it will be expensive. This is one of the big reasons that GUE has not rolled out its OW class. It will be VERY expensive, and the audience will therefore be small.

I strongly suspect that part of the reason PADI fragments education the way it does (in addition to the fact that it is profitable for them) is that you get people through the first class, and then you can toss them additional bits of information one at a time, at fees they can afford and will contemplate paying. On the other hand, you have the Cave 1 class I want to take . . . Five very long days long, and $1300. How many people would take a solid week off work and spend over a thousand dollars to learn to dive in the first place?

But back to the original point. Instructors work to become instructors. They spend their time and their energy, and frankly, in this sport, they take risks with themselves, and responsibility for the safety of others. They deserve compensation, and they don't get much in this sport. Even with the dissatisfaction I have with my original diving training, I do not resent any money the instructors made from teaching me.

 

[RS]

How does it go? In heaven the police officers are British, the chefs are French and the auto mechanics are German; but in hell the police officers are German, the chefs are British and the auto mechanics are French.

The force is strong in this one. But I sense much humor in him...

 

[RS]

deleted. already said.

 

[RS]

Hardly: Buddy Holly, Elvis, etc. then Motown then Byrds and all their offshoots through CSN&Y, Flying Burritto Bros., etc. San Francisco including Airplane, Dead, Big Brother, Youngbloods, etc. and lets not forget Dylan, the Band, Baez, etc. Sure the Brits made some good music, but "the best?" Hardly.

You missed Hendrix.

No wait, how is he classified? Brit or Yank??

 

[MikeFerrara]

Now this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say the quality of the course -depends entirely upon the instructor - And that the quality or merit of the courses simply cannot be based upon the course description.

At our LDS, I have confirmed the wreck course includes the following instruction:

- 3 Non penetration dives.
- 1 Penetration dive; Skills and weather permitting.
- Line Drills on the surface.
- Line Drills on at least one of the non-penetration dives.
- Intro to individual and team gas management.
- Evening Lecture (6:00-9:30) on Wreck Diving Principles & Practices (including penetration no further than observable light)


I know for sure that the instructor is also a technical instructor, and I am fairly certain hes fully cave certified.

I didn't say anything about a "course description". I was talking about course standards. the satandards are written by the agency and define everything regarding the course from what an instructor must to to be qualified to teach the course to what must be taught in the course and the course limits. In the case of PADI courses, Lecture outlines and a list of performance requirements for each dive are also included.

If an instructor teaches something other that what is defined in the standards then he's teaching a different course. Your instructor might teach a great wreck diving class and I have no way of knowing one way or the other. PADI however, has designed a wreck diving course that I don't think much of.

Maybe your instructor has overhead training but I can tell you for a fact that there are a lot of PADI wreck diving instructors who don't have any because PADI doesn't require it.

 

[pir8]

(Show on the road....like a traveling circus.... )

I do try to make my classes entertaining

 

[TheHobster]

A parting shot for the instructors who feel they are *entitled* to be paid. A good instructor teaches because they love to teach. A teacher for a sport is a prime example of somebody who teaches for the fun and enjoyment of the sport. Very few teachers of sport or game feel they are *entitled* to be paid for their knowledge. Some have the luck / skill to obtain employment teaching but MOST by far teach because it makes them happy. I have never met a sport teacher until now that teaches because they expect to be paid. Oh, and before you go there please dont even dream of comparing yourself to an academic. PADI isnt recognized lol.

Entitled??? You live in Sacramento, state capitol of the largest entitlement state in the country, and you want to denigrate entitlement of people imparting a service to be paid for said service? You sound more like YOU feel entitled to have it all because you spent $7k for gear and classes.

First off, don't tell me about sport coaches. I coached swimming for 18 years, at all levels and I started out as a volunteer, then got $100/semester my 2nd year. Never met a sport teacher that didn't expect to be paid? Did you play HS sports? They get paid; they are teachers, and get a stipend for coaching. Pete Carrol gets paid handsomely at USC to coach football. Do not confuse the volunteer coaches of youth sports with the coaching professionals at other levels. Or maybe you should look at Youth sports and see the good ones are getting private coaching, for a fee, at places and times away from the teams practice, and paying $50/hour plus for that availability.

Now, as to PADI not being recognized, funny, but I sign around 3-5 sheets a year from various univrsities attesting that my student is an OW diver and they receieve PE credit for same; also I spent 8 years teaching SCUBA at 2 universities, and guess what, they were PADI classes; and lastly, I don't have the time to research this, but to the best of my 20 year old recollection, the state of California recognizes PADI as an educational provider. When they changed from not for profit, they were having some issues with accreditation from the state. I know when I was coordinating Con Ed for an insurance company, we had to be approved both by the Dept of Insur and Dept of Ed to be approved in California. The only state to do that, BTW.

We have families we are away from while we teach, we need to at least offset the expenses of the gear, maintenance, and fees to be fair to family. Now, I am getting ready to teach an EANx class for 2. I promised them I would whether they were the only ones or not as they are leaving next Fri for a trip. Yes, I do it for love, but the $140 I'll make is also nice. Maybe I will take my wife to brunch tomorrow to pay her back for babysitting the sick dog while I am teaching.

As far as never taking a PADI class again, feel free not to. That's how the free market economy works. The problem is usually the instructor, NOT PADI, NAUI, etc. The perceived problem of a diver taking a number of classes is no different than a college program. To get a degree in PE, I needed to take separate classes: Anatomy, Physiology, Kinesiology, Exercise Physiology, etc - why nickel and dime me by taking all these classes, as opposed to one class? Same here, it fits well into the academic calendar, and the academic calendar for a diver is a weekend. Secondly, in todays society, people want things short and sweet, thats the market. To meet market demand the certifying orgs have tried to adapt. I don't agree with all PADI has done, but they have tried to adapt, while still maintaining standards. They were the first to do a number of things in the industry, for good or bad doesn't matter; they are trying to make the sport safer, more available and more universal.

Thw choice to diving Con Ed is up to you, as opposed to me as an insurance agent, or an attorney, CPA etc. I have had some weak classes, but never one that wasted my time. I have had some that were repetitive; some that I decided early on was not something I would go further in; some that I had a Eureka moment where I said, I knew that!; and some where I had to learn new skills and knowledges that challenged me.


I still take a class/seminar a year, like an annual vitamin. It's good in that I may learn new things, or it reinforces old skills or knowledge. But either way something good comes from it.

 

[fisherdvm]

Twitty sounds more like a troll now.. It's time to quit posting.

 

[Thalassamania]

Twitty sounds more like a troll now.. It's time to quit posting.

Yazer boss, yazer!

 

[HowardE]

...I strongly suspect that part of the reason PADI fragments education the way it does (in addition to the fact that it is profitable for them) is that you get people through the first class, and then you can toss them additional bits of information one at a time, at fees they can afford and will contemplate paying. On the other hand, you have the Cave 1 class I want to take . . . Five very long days long, and $1300. How many people would take a solid week off work and spend over a thousand dollars to learn to dive in the first place?

I agree with you on this one 11

I frequently hear on SB how it's all the instructor, etc. Which I agree with as well. However, SB is a mere microcosm of the real world. Of course people here are super instructors. People here are so into SCUBA that they talk about it all the time, when they're not diving.

The vast majority of people out there are more than satisfied with the current systems in place for OW certification. Heck - people even do "resort courses" - The system as TS&M points out is in place to get people certified, and make the FIRST step; OW certification. From there, you can choose your path to more advanced diving.

Another point I'm trying to make is; If you're even here on ScubaBoard, either you're really interested in diving, and love it a lot, or you just have nothing better to do, and you got kicked off of your last forum