Continuing Ed. or just paying to dive..

[pir8]

Hmm cant let that go.. Teaching is a business? What is charged barely covers the cost of insurance, gear etc? If I dont charge you for what I know you wont respect me (okay unfair, you wont respect what I teach)?

Teaching is a profession to be sure and if what you teach has value you are entitled to payment for the service of teaching right? I dont argue that point, I argue that you divide what you teach up into segments solely for the purpose of chargeing more for information (with the possibility of this division placing your students at risk). I also argue that some appear to be attempting to make a living teaching diving at a LDS and are trying to justify this crazy structure to further those goals not to better improve how they teach. I have no problem paying for OW or even AOW (although I must say the division of these two seems well Dangerous, regardless of your "athletic" ability or raw nerve). A note on this "danger" I have skydived, rockclimbed to 5.11 trad and spent 4 years in 82nd Airborne, I dont doubt my confidence to overcome an obstacle and yet I still believe training in OW is poor at best.

Am I the only person posting who sees that by the costs, divisions, requirements, certifications etc. the sole purpose of some Agencies/LDS/Instructors appears to be to reduce the number of instructors, increase the cost to students, limit knowledge available (well at least until you take that "specialty")? What possible purpose could it serve the student to only teach OW and not include the requirements of AOW? What purpose does it serve to give "tastes" of courses like underwater nav, deep diving, and night diving (limited visiblity diving). Every single one of those courses WILL affect a novice diver. Oh and dont even get me started on the bouyancy "specialty" *** are you thinking placing something so important seperate from basic instruction (can you say cork from 60+ feet after a 40 min dive?), accidents happen true, but you sure as hell are increasing the likely hood of those accidents.

If your a private instructor and have your own insurance (highly unlikely) and YOU buy specialty gear strictly for the benefit of your students, you have a right to cover your costs by all means. How much you charge me really isn't going to impress me with you as an instructor (sorry). I would guess by my own experience and all the group classes from Lds everywhere in Monterey that you dont pay insurance and the LDS covers most of the gear (for a fee of course).

Wow you really are in LaLa land. Almost all the instructors I know have their own insurance and gear. Come to think of it it is all the instructors I know. While I do get a discount on my gear I do have to buy all my own gear.

 

[Thalassamania]

Wow you really are in LaLa land. Almost all the instructors I know have their own insurance and gear. Come to think of it it is all the instructors I know. While I do get a discount on my gear I do have to buy all my own gear.

I believe he's refer to class gear not personal equipment. Very few instuctors that I know have their own class gear.

 

[pir8]

I guess I'm different because I have a lot of my own stuff that I use as well as theirs. I do do some private work though, depends on which side of the river I am on since the LDS I teach for is in Jersey but I live in Pa.

 

[loosebits]

Hmm cant let that go.. Teaching is a business? What is charged barely covers the cost of insurance, gear etc? If I dont charge you for what I know you wont respect me (okay unfair, you wont respect what I teach)?

Teaching is a profession to be sure and if what you teach has value you are entitled to payment for the service of teaching right? I dont argue that point, I argue that you divide what you teach up into segments solely for the purpose of chargeing more for information (with the possibility of this division placing your students at risk). I also argue that some appear to be attempting to make a living teaching diving at a LDS and are trying to justify this crazy structure to further those goals not to better improve how they teach. I have no problem paying for OW or even AOW (although I must say the division of these two seems well Dangerous, regardless of your "athletic" ability or raw nerve). A note on this "danger" I have skydived, rockclimbed to 5.11 trad and spent 4 years in 82nd Airborne, I dont doubt my confidence to overcome an obstacle and yet I still believe training in OW is poor at best.

Am I the only person posting who sees that by the costs, divisions, requirements, certifications etc. the sole purpose of some Agencies/LDS/Instructors appears to be to reduce the number of instructors, increase the cost to students, limit knowledge available (well at least until you take that "specialty")? What possible purpose could it serve the student to only teach OW and not include the requirements of AOW? What purpose does it serve to give "tastes" of courses like underwater nav, deep diving, and night diving (limited visiblity diving). Every single one of those courses WILL affect a novice diver. Oh and dont even get me started on the bouyancy "specialty" *** are you thinking placing something so important seperate from basic instruction (can you say cork from 60+ feet after a 40 min dive?), accidents happen true, but you sure as hell are increasing the likely hood of those accidents.

If your a private instructor and have your own insurance (highly unlikely) and YOU buy specialty gear strictly for the benefit of your students, you have a right to cover your costs by all means. How much you charge me really isn't going to impress me with you as an instructor (sorry). I would guess by my own experience and all the group classes from Lds everywhere in Monterey that you dont pay insurance and the LDS covers most of the gear (for a fee of course).

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head except I think you used the wrong end of the hammer.

Most agencies, to grow their market share, are trying to increase the number of instructors, not limit them and then entire point of the continual exersize of reducing the minimum skills needed for that OW card and creating a miriad of specilaties is to lower the cost and time required to get a card (and raise the cost needed to learn to dive). Once OW was sufficently trimmed the agencies were able to tout the benefits of PPB or how necessary AOW is because they themselves turned OW into something that can be done during a weekend.

Anyone who tells you that PPB is a great class needs to do so with the caveat that it should have been learned before you left the pool but when you pay $200 for OW, you get $200 worth of OW.

My guess that in order for you to get the same instruction through one of these agencies you will end up paying quite a bit more to dive at the level of someone who took it from a good private instructor (I would imagine most private classes are better - and more expensive - than most LDS classes).

 

[RayJayJr]

The wreck course is just flat out scary. The course optionally includes penetration however the instructor can qualify to teach the course without ever having had any training in overhead diving themselves. No line drills are required on land and the line drills required in open water don't even come close to what is required in any cavern course. And then there's the gas management issue. They don't bother teaching you to shoot a bag in this course either. The course certainly doesn't present much information on "wrecks". I don't even see how they could call it a wreck diving course.

Now this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say the quality of the course -depends entirely upon the instructor - And that the quality or merit of the courses simply cannot be based upon the course description.

At our LDS, I have confirmed the wreck course includes the following instruction:

- 3 Non penetration dives.
- 1 Penetration dive; Skills and weather permitting.
- Line Drills on the surface.
- Line Drills on at least one of the non-penetration dives.
- Intro to individual and team gas management.
- Evening Lecture (6:00-9:30) on Wreck Diving Principles & Practices (including penetration no further than observable light)


I know for sure that the instructor is also a technical instructor, and I am fairly certain hes fully cave certified.

 

[loosebits]

Now this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say the quality of the course -depends entirely upon the instructor - And that the quality or merit of the courses simply cannot be based upon the course description.

At our LDS, I have confirmed the wreck course includes the following instruction:

- 3 Non penetration dives.
- 1 Penetration dive; Skills and weather permitting.
- Line Drills on the surface.
- Line Drills on at least one of the non-penetration dives.
- Intro to individual and team gas management.
- Evening Lecture (6:00-9:30) on Wreck Diving Principles & Practices (including penetration no further than observable light)


I know for sure that the instructor is also a technical instructor, and I am fairly certain hes fully cave certified.

I think the problem is that it shouldn't depend so much on the quality of the instructor. If the agencies would set the bar high enough, fewer instructors would be able to give bad instruction.

 

[Thalassamania]

I think the problem is that it shouldn't depend so much on the quality of the instructor. If the agencies would set the bar high enough, fewer instructors would be able to give bad instruction.

If the agencies cared about the quality of the instructors they'd not keep making it easier to become one. While I difffer with GUE on other stuff, this they've got right.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Hmm cant let that go.. Teaching is a business? What is charged barely covers the cost of insurance, gear etc? If I dont charge you for what I know you wont respect me (okay unfair, you wont respect what I teach)?

Teaching is a profession to be sure and if what you teach has value you are entitled to payment for the service of teaching right? I dont argue that point, I argue that you divide what you teach up into segments solely for the purpose of chargeing more for information (with the possibility of this division placing your students at risk). I also argue that some appear to be attempting to make a living teaching diving at a LDS and are trying to justify this crazy structure to further those goals not to better improve how they teach. I have no problem paying for OW or even AOW (although I must say the division of these two seems well Dangerous, regardless of your "athletic" ability or raw nerve). A note on this "danger" I have skydived, rockclimbed to 5.11 trad and spent 4 years in 82nd Airborne, I dont doubt my confidence to overcome an obstacle and yet I still believe training in OW is poor at best.

Am I the only person posting who sees that by the costs, divisions, requirements, certifications etc. the sole purpose of some Agencies/LDS/Instructors appears to be to reduce the number of instructors, increase the cost to students, limit knowledge available (well at least until you take that "specialty")? What possible purpose could it serve the student to only teach OW and not include the requirements of AOW? What purpose does it serve to give "tastes" of courses like underwater nav, deep diving, and night diving (limited visiblity diving). Every single one of those courses WILL affect a novice diver. Oh and dont even get me started on the bouyancy "specialty" *** are you thinking placing something so important seperate from basic instruction (can you say cork from 60+ feet after a 40 min dive?), accidents happen true, but you sure as hell are increasing the likely hood of those accidents.

If your a private instructor and have your own insurance (highly unlikely) and YOU buy specialty gear strictly for the benefit of your students, you have a right to cover your costs by all means. How much you charge me really isn't going to impress me with you as an instructor (sorry). I would guess by my own experience and all the group classes from Lds everywhere in Monterey that you dont pay insurance and the LDS covers most of the gear (for a fee of course).

A request, if I may ... please either bookmark the above quoted post or save it to a file somewhere.

Come back and revisit the topic after you've learned a bit about how the scuba business actually operates. Because, to be frank ... you're making a lot of inaccurate assumptions.

FWIW - Most instructors pay their own insurance. All instructors pay their own membership dues. All instructors pay for their own gear (most do get reduced rates). Toss in teaching aids and travel expenses and, frankly, most of us could do a lot better financially flipping burgers.

To be honest, I do not even teach OW classes anymore, because in order for me to break even I'd have to charge you more for the class than you'd be willing to pay.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[A Plante]

I have been diving over 30 years, way before most of these speciality certs existed, AOW, Rescue and a couple of others were about it. Boat, drift, nav etc.... were all part of the basic OW I took in Oki, No instructor pushed Advanced unless you wanted to explore diving past the sport limits of the time, Where I have an issue is when the rules change, I would have a hard time with someone limiting me to lets say 80' because I have only a OW, that's a button I wouldn't push, my basic OW check out dive took us to the sport limit with 2 other rep dives around 100' plus a midnight dive too boot. We did nav, swift current, night, emergency ascent ditch drills from 40 & 65', it was an intensive all encompassing course. I have no issue with Instructors offering speciality certs, it may work for some, where I would draw the line is if the rules change and people start mandating requirements. With almost 500 dives all over the world, the best lesson learned came from other more experinced divers, dm's and operators at no cost other than the dive trip itself..... Join a club, the wealth of knowledge there is usually priceless. Have Fun, Dive and Keep it simple...... :11:

 

[Ann Marie]

Hmmm ... an interesting perspective.

As a scuba instructor, I typically earn less per year than it costs me to maintain the certifications/insurance/equipment required for the profession. I "give away" a lot of knowledge in the form of mentoring and free seminars. I do it because I love teaching ... and because I enjoy giving something back to a scuba community that is a large part of my life. But when I offer a class, I do believe I'm "entitled" to payment for that class.

Why?

Because if I don't place a value on my time, skills, and knowledge ... you won't either.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

:yelclap:

Bob, well said!!! :10: