Continuing Ed. or just paying to dive..

[Thalassamania]

But, with all due respect, don't I recall seeing that you primarily train professional divers, as opposed to purely recreational divers?

The course is based (and little changed from) courses that were standard in the recreational community. Actually I train (and have trained) a very diverse group of students that want to learn to dive. They have ranged from high school students looking for some college credits, to business majors, to art majors, to music majors, to university administers, to the 68 year old wife of a university president. That’s not so say the majority of the students are not in the sciences, they are. But one should not think of them as “professional” divers, in point of fact the U.S. Government specifically exempts them for the regulations covering “professional” divers. Yes, they dive to accomplish their research tasks, then like the recreational divers you describe they’re back in the lab … often for a couple of years. Then another field season and a few hundred dives, then back in the lab, etc.

I don't disagree about the freedom to critique, but comments like "frequent buyer clubs" tends to push a bit past critique to outright contempt and dismissal.

PADI uses terms like “mastery” and refers to skills that used to be part of the entry level course as “continuing education.” You accept that as mere puffery and walk on by. Is not my, “frequent buyer club,” phrase the same sort of exaggeration for effect? OK, I’ll grant that perhaps “frequent buyer club” is a bit over the top and I’ll try to stop using it. Do you think you can get PADI to stop their bumphery as easily?

 

[OHGoDive]

PADI uses terms like “mastery” and refers to skills that used to be part of the entry level course as “continuing education.” You accept that as mere puffery and walk on by. Is not my, “frequent buyer club,” phrase the same sort of exaggeration for effect? OK, I’ll grant that perhaps “frequent buyer club” is a bit over the top and I’ll try to stop using it. Do you think you can get PADI to stop they’re bumphery as easily?

Well, no, I doubt they'll go for that anymore than Hollywood will stop throwing the label BLOCKBUSTER!!! on every other film released. But, then again, I don't think I accept "bumphery" and walk on by, either.

When I'm dealing with marketing, PADI's or anyone elses, it's pretty easy for me to see past the hyperbole and do what any consumer should be doing, a bit of research, thought, etc. and try to make an informed decision. Maybe I'm the exception, but I don't think I'm all that unusual.

 

[Thalassamania]

… a bit of research, thought, etc. and try to make an informed decision. Maybe I'm the exception, but I don't think I'm all that unusual.

Reseach! Thought! Not unusual?

 

[Twiddles]

I have never claimed to be an expert, to not need instruction, hell Im not even an average diver. I am a beginner and will continue to be one for many more years I am sure. I do know when I am being hustled, I can tell when I am given a "taste" of something wether or not its just a way of enticing me the student into paying more for information that should be included.

What it boils down to after reading all your posts (brits?, music?) is most instructors (not all) seem to believe they are somehow *entitled* to be paid for every bit of knowledge they have. They like the PADI system because it is designed to do just that get them or the lds paid. Unfortunately diving alone cant be a career for most, even I can see that with only 22 dives so I am sure you instructors with 1000's know this all to well. So instead of accepting that fact like say "skydiving instructors" (of whom maybee 1 in 5000 could make a living at it) you and it appears at least one certifying agency are trying to make diving profitable. Not just profitable in terms of the LDS but also somehow profitable enough to suppliment your incomes substantially (regardless of the poll on these boards, lol) as well.

The fact that you are trying to make money at what you are doing is not what I find contemptable. It is the fact that you justify what you do as a service to your students. You hinder your students education with justifications of not enough time, or not enough pay. You claim you have tons of knowledge to impart but you just need some incentive to give it to your students. You create courses where there isnt room for one and then claim a dozens reasons why this course has merit. Finally, you use for your justification "buyer beware" if you dont want it you dont have to buy it or do your research and you decide what you want to continue with (good advice for a novice, you decide what you should do....).

I am sure I am not the only diver who has looked back after AOW, especially those who have also bought there own gear and wondered at the expense. Diving is definately a lifestyle with or without continued instruction (which even in this post has been pushed, lol) I am thankfull for the guy in mexico who got me started and to my instructor here who taught me enough to be safe in Monterey. I will continue to dive often (and well I hope). I will not likely continue any education through PADI, I just feel ripped off. A piece of advice for those that care, continuing in this manner will only eventually drive more and more students away BEFORE they learn to become safe divers. If not from feeling ripped off then from simply not having the money to continue (which I would bet is a major reason people stop there ed at OW or AOW). How many of you realized the cost of gear when you started? LOL

A parting shot for the instructors who feel they are *entitled* to be paid. A good instructor teaches because they love to teach. A teacher for a sport is a prime example of somebody who teaches for the fun and enjoyment of the sport. Very few teachers of sport or game feel they are *entitled* to be paid for their knowledge. Some have the luck / skill to obtain employment teaching but MOST by far teach because it makes them happy. I have never met a sport teacher until now that teaches because they expect to be paid. Oh, and before you go there please dont even dream of comparing yourself to an academic. PADI isnt recognized lol.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

A parting shot for the instructors who feel they are *entitled* to be paid. A good instructor teaches because they love to teach. A teacher for a sport is a prime example of somebody who teaches for the fun and enjoyment of the sport. Very few teachers of sport or game feel they are *entitled* to be paid for their knowledge. Some have the luck / skill to obtain employment teaching but MOST by far teach because it makes them happy. I have never met a sport teacher until now that teaches because they expect to be paid. Oh, and before you go there please dont even dream of comparing yourself to an academic. PADI isnt recognized lol.

Hmmm ... an interesting perspective.

As a scuba instructor, I typically earn less per year than it costs me to maintain the certifications/insurance/equipment required for the profession. I "give away" a lot of knowledge in the form of mentoring and free seminars. I do it because I love teaching ... and because I enjoy giving something back to a scuba community that is a large part of my life. But when I offer a class, I do believe I'm "entitled" to payment for that class.

Why?

Because if I don't place a value on my time, skills, and knowledge ... you won't either.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[oly5050user]

I have never claimed to be an expert, to not need instruction, hell Im not even an average diver. I am a beginner and will continue to be one for many more years I am sure. I do know when I am being hustled, I can tell when I am given a "taste" of something wether or not its just a way of enticing me the student into paying more for information that should be included.

What it boils down to after reading all your posts (brits?, music?) is most instructors (not all) seem to believe they are somehow *entitled* to be paid for every bit of knowledge they have. They like the PADI system because it is designed to do just that get them or the lds paid. Unfortunately diving alone cant be a career for most, even I can see that with only 22 dives so I am sure you instructors with 1000's know this all to well. So instead of accepting that fact like say "skydiving instructors" (of whom maybee 1 in 5000 could make a living at it) you and it appears at least one certifying agency are trying to make diving profitable. Not just profitable in terms of the LDS but also somehow profitable enough to suppliment your incomes substantially (regardless of the poll on these boards, lol) as well.

The fact that you are trying to make money at what you are doing is not what I find contemptable. It is the fact that you justify what you do as a service to your students. You hinder your students education with justifications of not enough time, or not enough pay. You claim you have tons of knowledge to impart but you just need some incentive to give it to your students. You create courses where there isnt room for one and then claim a dozens reasons why this course has merit. Finally, you use for your justification "buyer beware" if you dont want it you dont have to buy it or do your research and you decide what you want to continue with (good advice for a novice, you decide what you should do....).

I am sure I am not the only diver who has looked back after AOW, especially those who have also bought there own gear and wondered at the expense. Diving is definately a lifestyle with or without continued instruction (which even in this post has been pushed, lol) I am thankfull for the guy in mexico who got me started and to my instructor here who taught me enough to be safe in Monterey. I will continue to dive often (and well I hope). I will not likely continue any education through PADI, I just feel ripped off. A piece of advice for those that care, continuing in this manner will only eventually drive more and more students away BEFORE they learn to become safe divers. If not from feeling ripped off then from simply not having the money to continue (which I would bet is a major reason people stop there ed at OW or AOW). How many of you realized the cost of gear when you started? LOL

A parting shot for the instructors who feel they are *entitled* to be paid. A good instructor teaches because they love to teach. A teacher for a sport is a prime example of somebody who teaches for the fun and enjoyment of the sport. Very few teachers of sport or game feel they are *entitled* to be paid for their knowledge. Some have the luck / skill to obtain employment teaching but MOST by far teach because it makes them happy. I have never met a sport teacher until now that teaches because they expect to be paid. Oh, and before you go there please dont even dream of comparing yourself to an academic. PADI isnt recognized lol.

most do it for the satisfaction of imparting information to others..The pay at times ,as another poster put up, barely covers the cost of insurance,,equipment..It is a business and as in any business you expect to be rewarded in it..Some of the reward is monetary and some is in personal satisfaction.I find that the majority of instructors that do not keep in mind that it is a business blow through the activity of teaching and end their careers doing it much earlier than those who do it as a business..Sorry you feel the way you all do but to generalize the way you do is wrong..
Here in the USA professional sport trainers are very well paid ,fitness trainers well paid,and these people may love what they do and are "sport teachers"..Even a high school physical education teacher can be well paid..
PADI is recognized as a college accredited organization that you can get college credits for the courses..Recognized by the American Council of Education..taught at many colleges and universities ..get the credits if taught at the college or at the LDS..

 

[Thalassamania]

Twiddles, you are a wise person, I've learned some things from you and reached a better understanding into why I feel the way I do about various issues as a result of your insights. Thank you.

 

[pir8]

I have never claimed to be an expert, to not need instruction, hell Im not even an average diver. I am a beginner and will continue to be one for many more years I am sure. I do know when I am being hustled, I can tell when I am given a "taste" of something wether or not its just a way of enticing me the student into paying more for information that should be included.

What it boils down to after reading all your posts (brits?, music?) is most instructors (not all) seem to believe they are somehow *entitled* to be paid for every bit of knowledge they have. They like the PADI system because it is designed to do just that get them or the lds paid. Unfortunately diving alone cant be a career for most, even I can see that with only 22 dives so I am sure you instructors with 1000's know this all to well. So instead of accepting that fact like say "skydiving instructors" (of whom maybee 1 in 5000 could make a living at it) you and it appears at least one certifying agency are trying to make diving profitable. Not just profitable in terms of the LDS but also somehow profitable enough to suppliment your incomes substantially (regardless of the poll on these boards, lol) as well.

The fact that you are trying to make money at what you are doing is not what I find contemptable. It is the fact that you justify what you do as a service to your students. You hinder your students education with justifications of not enough time, or not enough pay. You claim you have tons of knowledge to impart but you just need some incentive to give it to your students. You create courses where there isnt room for one and then claim a dozens reasons why this course has merit. Finally, you use for your justification "buyer beware" if you dont want it you dont have to buy it or do your research and you decide what you want to continue with (good advice for a novice, you decide what you should do....).

I am sure I am not the only diver who has looked back after AOW, especially those who have also bought there own gear and wondered at the expense. Diving is definately a lifestyle with or without continued instruction (which even in this post has been pushed, lol) I am thankfull for the guy in mexico who got me started and to my instructor here who taught me enough to be safe in Monterey. I will continue to dive often (and well I hope). I will not likely continue any education through PADI, I just feel ripped off. A piece of advice for those that care, continuing in this manner will only eventually drive more and more students away BEFORE they learn to become safe divers. If not from feeling ripped off then from simply not having the money to continue (which I would bet is a major reason people stop there ed at OW or AOW). How many of you realized the cost of gear when you started? LOL

A parting shot for the instructors who feel they are *entitled* to be paid. A good instructor teaches because they love to teach. A teacher for a sport is a prime example of somebody who teaches for the fun and enjoyment of the sport. Very few teachers of sport or game feel they are *entitled* to be paid for their knowledge. Some have the luck / skill to obtain employment teaching but MOST by far teach because it makes them happy. I have never met a sport teacher until now that teaches because they expect to be paid. Oh, and before you go there please dont even dream of comparing yourself to an academic. PADI isnt recognized lol.

Are you for real? Sports instructors don't get paid? You really are in another world!

 

[Twiddles]

Hmm cant let that go.. Teaching is a business? What is charged barely covers the cost of insurance, gear etc? If I dont charge you for what I know you wont respect me (okay unfair, you wont respect what I teach)?

Teaching is a profession to be sure and if what you teach has value you are entitled to payment for the service of teaching right? I dont argue that point, I argue that you divide what you teach up into segments solely for the purpose of chargeing more for information (with the possibility of this division placing your students at risk). I also argue that some appear to be attempting to make a living teaching diving at a LDS and are trying to justify this crazy structure to further those goals not to better improve how they teach. I have no problem paying for OW or even AOW (although I must say the division of these two seems well Dangerous, regardless of your "athletic" ability or raw nerve). A note on this "danger" I have skydived, rockclimbed to 5.11 trad and spent 4 years in 82nd Airborne, I dont doubt my confidence to overcome an obstacle and yet I still believe training in OW is poor at best.

Am I the only person posting who sees that by the costs, divisions, requirements, certifications etc. the sole purpose of some Agencies/LDS/Instructors appears to be to reduce the number of instructors, increase the cost to students, limit knowledge available (well at least until you take that "specialty")? What possible purpose could it serve the student to only teach OW and not include the requirements of AOW? What purpose does it serve to give "tastes" of courses like underwater nav, deep diving, and night diving (limited visiblity diving). Every single one of those courses WILL affect a novice diver. Oh and dont even get me started on the bouyancy "specialty" *** are you thinking placing something so important seperate from basic instruction (can you say cork from 60+ feet after a 40 min dive?), accidents happen true, but you sure as hell are increasing the likely hood of those accidents.

If your a private instructor and have your own insurance (highly unlikely) and YOU buy specialty gear strictly for the benefit of your students, you have a right to cover your costs by all means. How much you charge me really isn't going to impress me with you as an instructor (sorry). I would guess by my own experience and all the group classes from Lds everywhere in Monterey that you dont pay insurance and the LDS covers most of the gear (for a fee of course).

 

[Thalassamania]

Most instructors, even when they work for an LDS pay their own insurance.