Continuing Ed. or just paying to dive..

[noobascooba]

Sorry but I forget the title, what I do remember is that it was a single album with opening song "Messin with the Kid" Great Slide Guitar. Didn't know he had passed on, such a shame.

that's Stage struck (I checked, I don't have an encyclopaediac knowledge!). Irish Tour is better, well worth getting hold off. I think Tatoo and Rory Gallagher are the best studio albums.

He has been dead since 1995 due to liver problems sadly. The real tragedy is he is probably better know now because his brother works tirelessly to promote his music; he never realised the extent of his impact.

I keep cringing and waiting for all the flames from these hijacks, but I can't help myself- music is one of my great passions in life (along with diving obviously!)

 

[TheHobster]

and this is what's wrong with the internet. Someone with 0-24 dives, and money to burn, thinks they are an expert. Good divers are ALWAYS learning, formally & informally. Yes, some specialties, taught by some instructors are weak. That is not all specialties, nor all instructors.

Here in Indiana, we do not dive for food, so U/W Hunting seems a waste; in SoCal or FL, it's a big seller. We teach alot of wreck classes. We teach line use, we run lines on land, we run lines on the outside of the wreck, we penetrate.

Someone mentioned Deep is a joke. I wholeheartedly disagree. Who would you like to be into the 2nd thermocline with, an instructor, or your buddy with 0-24 dives?

Learning on your own, yes it ca be done. but you will miss some things and maybe notbe fully prepared for certain events; then we read about you in the accident forum. Also, some classes are pre-reqs for tech or other training.

the course your are espousing is educationally unsound. if we tried to teach what you want in OW or AOW we would be back to the original 100 hour course. Few would take it and 4 sets of gear would be more than what you paid for sure.

It was mentioned that PADI requires Deep, Nav, Boat, Wreck etc. PADI in AOW requires only Deep & Nav plus 3 optional dives. Each AOW dive is the 1st dive of the corresponding specialty; NOT the complete specialty.

My advice Twiddles, listen more, get more experience, and be a good example to your kids and take a class a year to better yourself. I would suggest educational theory should be on your curricula.

I am a little confused by some of the course offering by PADI and presumably other programs. A few that come to mind would be boat diver, night diver, naturalist diver etc. The reason for my confusion is the cost to do these dives and the prerequisite of a certain number of "specialty" dives before you can move "up" the chain.

A number of these "specialty" dives are done during AOW or one of the other courses with PADI and yet you have to pay for that one extra dive that gets you the certification or that little bit of extra instruction that gets you the same.

Instructors on this board are always suggesting that this cert or that cert should be done to help improve on this or that and frankly it feels like the diver is being hustled. Several of these specialty courses could and SHOULD be combined into one educational dive program. The only real reason for not doing so is so that somebody (wether it be dive shop or dive instructor) wants to make more money...

The concept of to much information over to little time comes to mind but really for some of these specialty courses the majority of the requirement really falls on the student to learn the book work, the dives could easily be incorporated into say the AOW weekend.

It truly is my belief that this type of instruction endangers divers lives. You make people take courses seperately that should already be included in instruction already paid for, so you can make more money. If the student cant afford to pay for all these "specialties" they basically take their chances on there own because you didnt get your dollar. In addition it places rediculous course requirements on people who might want to become dive masters or asst instructors but dont have thousands of additional dollars to spend on superfulous class "specialties".

Diver cost to date:
My classes 0W $425, A0W $125.00, Altitude $125.00 Gear to do what I have been taught $2000 = $2675.00 for a total of 12 dives (not including CERT cards...)

Wifes Classes and gear same

Sons classes same x (2) gear basics $275.00 fins, mask, yada yada

Total to teach a family of four to dive and equip two of them with mid to low range gear $7000 Dollars yea um okay.....

You want more qualified divers?? Stop taking all your students to the bank at every opportunity.

 

[jaycanwk]

But you are special, not everyone is as great a diver as you. Not everyone has the presence that you command and they need someone to coach them in things that you didn't need it in.

Thats not really a fair assesment. The point he was making is that is doesn't take any "special" or "great" talent to achieve some of thoses skills as some of them really are intuitive common sense, that unless your dummer than a bag of hammers, you can easily self learn just by going out and diving lots and having some good mentors.

 

[Thalassamania]

Hmmmmm. Lets say some one did all their diving in a quarry, and had booked a live aboard as their first overseas dive trip. Would a boat dive speciality/orientation be worth it then? Possibly as something that will *add* to their enjoyment of the trip.

And what are they going to learn about diving off, say the Cayman Aggressor, in a boat diving course held in the Midwest? The live aboard folks deal with these problems every week and know exactly how to teach it quickly, efficiently and professionally.

… if we tried to teach what you want in OW or AOW we would be back to the original 100 hour course.

Exactly. That’s what I’ve done since 1976 and it works.

There’s nothing wrong with new divers taking classes to increase their knowledge and skills, but to fail to critique an organization that has set itself the goal of stamping out comprehensive diver training and replacing it with frequent buyer clubs that miss entire shelves of critical items is wrong, at least in the opinions of those of use who have experienced what 100 hr training can do.

Thats not really a fair assessment. The point he was making is that is doesn't take any "special" or "great" talent to achieve some of theses skills as some of them really are intuitive common sense, that unless your dumber than a bag of hammers, you can easily self learn just buy going out and diving lots and having some good mentors.

Exactly.

 

[fisherdvm]

There’s nothing wrong with new divers taking classes to increase their knowledge and skills, but to fail to critique an organization that has set itself the goal of stamping out comprehensive diver training and replacing it with frequent buyer clubs that miss entire shelves of critical items is wrong, at least in the opinions of those of use who have experienced what 100 hr training can do.

Exactly.

Then why are you bashing anyone to suggest AOW (Padi or otherwise), and encouraging someone NOT to do DM training with PADI??? You do understand that most DM don't really work at diving, and some just do it to get laid???

 

[Thalassamania]

Then why are you bashing anyone to suggest AOW (Padi or otherwise), and encouraging someone NOT to do DM training with PADI??? You do understand that most DM don't really work at diving, and some just do it to get laid???

Take whatever class you want, but if what you're really seeking in a DM card is sexual release, well ... I neither understand that nor condone it.

 

[ben@scorpiodivers.com]

well said twiddles, i understand how frustrating and expensive it now is to get wet and especially some of the speciality courses, boat diving, naturalist, why should you pay double for these just to increase your ed?!
on the other hand, the aow is a taster of how specialities should be taught, wreck speciality with lines and reels, drift speciality with smb, if your inst. is using the right equipment then your learning, if not, your still diving two tank but the inst & shop is getting double $$
i firmly beleive the best course out there is "rescue" and "efr", forget everything else, the speciality cards are just for show, these courses will further your education, dive at every possible chance and vary your dives, your going to get way more experince and a challenge from diving in cold water, altitudes, rivers etc than the pretty tropical seas! dont get me wrong, im strictly tropical, i got my experience a long long time ago!
be happy when your under the water

 

[Hawkwood]

After our OW, our next experience with “training”, occurred during a “Diver Enhancement Weekend” put on by two of the dive shops here in town. The weekend consisted of a number of scheduled dives that were lead by instructors, assistants, or DM’s. The dives were based on the Adventure Dives and consisted of peak performance buoyancy, night dives, navigation, DPV, search and recovery, among others. There was no charge for this and the dives were meant for fun and introduction – you did it for the experience, but could not apply them to AOW or a specialty. It was a fantastic for us. We were new divers (still are as far as I am concerned). We learned that there was a heck of a lot for us to learn! I remember doing a navigation, buoyancy, night, and DPV dive. We had a blast.

After that weekend we decided to take the AOW to learn a bit more under some “supervision”. Of course we did the deep and navigation. Deep was a bit of a hoot. The timed task was tying a knot. Might as well have asked me to do some differential calculus – couldn’t do the knot at surface and felt like a bozo. Still, managed to do it no problem at depth – in this case I wasn’t able to get any feel for the effects of depth. The group opted for multi-level, dry suit, and search and recovery as our other three dives. Multi-level pointed out things about nitrogen/depth/time that now appears very obvious, but at the time was enlightening. Dry suit appears to be a typical choice up here – it’ cold! Most folks added another dive to the AOW and simply got the dry suit specialization. Search and recovery was cool, and was really the first time I’d done anything close to “multi-tasking” underwater. To top that off, we did that in a river, with current and very poor visibility. All in all, the AOW was what I expected and what I was looking for. It is still an introduction to further learning and development.

Out of my AOW experience I decided to do the Deep dive specialty in preparation for our next trip. The classroom instruction was very good and the dives were excellent. My confidence level rose quite a bit through that experience. Time was taken to teach us some other skills during those dives including doing frog kicks, going backwards, and helicopter turns.

This winter I took an equipment course. Again, the instruction was excellent. We have three divers in the family, and anything to control maintenance and repair costs is welcome. I have no doubt I will recoup the cost of the course in short order.

The last class I took was enriched air. That was more for curiosity sake, but again I learned a lot which in hindsight may seem obvious, but at the time was new.

I guess the final comment is the point of “continuing education”. It can be formal (courses and instruction – for a fee or not) or informal (reading, trying, etc.). Like most education, you get out what you put in. Every body learns differently. No one method is the best for everybody, nor is always the same for an individual. Some times I want to be lead by the hand, sometimes I have to do it on my own, sometimes it’s a combination. About a month ago I asked NWGratefulDiver for a copy of his gas management paper. I understood it! It must have been at the right time – any earlier it would have meant little to me.

What’s up next in my continuing education? Ice dive classes next week and then under the ice in mid-February! Looking forward to it? You bet.

 

[Thalassamania]

What’s up next in my continuing education? Ice dive classes next week and then under the ice in mid-February! Looking forward to it? You bet.

Now there's an activity that you really do need a course for, have fun!

 

[OHGoDive]

And what are they going to learn about diving off, say the Cayman Aggressor, in a boat diving course held in the Midwest? The live aboard folks deal with these problems every week and know exactly how to teach it quickly, efficiently and professionally.

OK, but this isn't how everyone does it. Some people sign up for the course on the first day of that first "real" dive trip to the Keys. They got the book and the video and watched it before the trip and then did the hands-on on that first trip. They learned something before hand, they learned something more on the trip. And it made them feel much more confident about the whole process. Not expert, just more confident.

Just because it's not for everyone doesn't mean that it doesn't work for some, or even many.

Exactly. That’s what I’ve done since 1976 and it works.

But, with all due respect, don't I recall seeing that you primarily train professional divers, as opposed to purely recreational divers?

There’s nothing wrong with new divers taking classes to increase their knowledge and skills, but to fail to critique an organization that has set itself the goal of stamping out comprehensive diver training and replacing it with frequent buyer clubs that miss entire shelves of critical items is wrong, at least in the opinions of those of use who have experienced what 100 hr training can do.

I don't disagree about the freedom to critique, but comments like "frequent buyer clubs" tends to push a bit past critique to outright contempt and dismissal.