Considering PADI master diver

[Thalassamania]

... This course or even the 1 adventure dive for AOW helps people to understand the concepts faster and then put them into practice.

Why not do it right from the first day of class? PPB is naught but a dressing placed on an inadequate entry level course.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

Choose a better instructor next time. Clearly your instructor wasn't worth paying. If it was a PADI course even the so called bare minimum which many on these boards complain about was not followed.

If done properly nearly anyone can learn from these dives. This course or even the 1 adventure dive for AOW helps people to understand the concepts faster and then put them into practice.

That is clearly the lesson that I learned. Didn't learn much about diving, but did learn to be picky about selecting an instructor.

 

[drew52]

Why not do it right from the first day of class? PPB is naught but a dressing placed on an inadequate entry level course.

Some of us actually do concentrate on trim, buoyancy etc. from the beginning. Thats what the fun and skills practice is for in the confined water and the diving/skills part of the Open Water check out dives.

I'm also wondering about YMCA Open Water Diver 2 course. Is this also something to do with inadequate Open Water Training?

 

[Thalassamania]

Some of us actually do concentrate on trim, buoyancy etc. from the beginning. Thats what the fun and skills practice is for in the confined water and the diving/skills part of the Open Water check out dives.

Then why take (or advocate) a course that, in a nutshell, features a fin pivot and a vertical hover presented as the skills to master?

 

[drew52]

no fin pivot.

I would say the skill to master is buoyancy (breathe control). As with the YMCA offering their Open Water 2 course this may just be a course for those who need a little extra help. But then it may be for those who want to fine tune their buoyancy.

Just because a person can dive without bouncing up and down, crashing on the reef, causing operation desert storm or whatever does not mean they can't improve or fine tune their dive skills. This gives those people a chance to learn with the guidance of an instructor. Some people actually like that.

Because you or others don't does not mean it has no value.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Choose a better instructor next time. Clearly your instructor wasn't worth paying. If it was a PADI course even the so called bare minimum which many on these boards complain about was not followed.

The standards permit indirect supervision for OW dives...is, the instructor is NOT required to be in the water.

If done properly nearly anyone can learn from these dives. This course or even the 1 adventure dive for AOW helps people to understand the concepts faster and then put them into practice.

What should we use for a definition for "properly"? If we use the standards, as written by the agency, then the instructor can just have you do the knowledge review and send you off to do the dive on your own while he/she waits on shore/boat.

Lets also note here that the PPB specialty is one of the specialties that ALL PADI instructors are permitted to teach. They need not have ever actualy taken the course or even been evaluated on their own buoyancy control skills, aside from OW level skills. If they can just read the outline and teach the course than so can anyone else. LOL

Given that you can't even do a good descent or ascent without good buoyancy control, or stay with a buddy or anything else related to diving, the mere fact that any certified diver should need a course like this is just a real shame.

The course itself still misses many of the point that should have been taught in OW and even fails as a catchup sort of thing. It's just more fluff.

 

[girldiverllc]

I'd have to disagree with you on the PPB course. If taught as a fluff course...yeah, that's what it becomes. But, I've yet to meet ANY students who, in their OW course, can absolutely MASTER buoyancy control, in addition to the other 18 skills they need to demonstrate.

When I teach PPB, we do a classroom session, a 2 hour pool session, then move onto the two Open Water dives. Much emphasis is placed on breathing, relaxation techniques and body positioning in the water. We review proper weighting guidelines and trim, adjusting based on their own gear that each diver (hopefully) by now has purchased. Questions specific to their "experience" with breathing or movement in the water can be addressed. The difference that I see in the students who go through PPB with me is HUGE. They go from "ok divers" to "in control...moving effortlessly through the water".

As for "no instruction needed after you're certified..."

If ALL skills in diving were really to be "mastered" in your OW class...well, then as an instructor, I'd have to charge a couple thousand dollars for my OW class, and my students would need to purchase all of their own gear BEFORE class. My OW class would need to consist of 50 OW dives and probably 10 pool sessions. AND...it would definitely be in excess of ANY training agencies OW and AOW put together.

Diving is a high-risk endeavor. One that if done properly, has many safety nets built in...but truly, we are not fish, we do not have gills. Take the "Master Scuba Diver" challenge. Will this make you a "professional"? NO. But it will take you through 5 specialty areas. We don't use lift bags in OW class...but we do in Search and Recovery specialty. We don't spend 10+ hours focusing on breathing and movement in the water in OW...but we do in Peak Perf. Buoyancy. We BETTER not be doing high current drift dives, carrying spear guns or wreck penetration in OW...but we can in those specialties.

Ok...enough wordage for now...

Cheers!

 

[MikeFerrara]

I'd have to disagree with you on the PPB course. If taught as a fluff course...yeah, that's what it becomes. But, I've yet to meet ANY students who, in their OW course, can absolutely MASTER buoyancy control, in addition to the other 18 skills they need to demonstrate.

The problem here is that a 30 second hover and a short nuetral swim are just two in the list of skills that divers are taught. The problem with this thinking and the entire design of the course is that hovering and being able to move about the water column with control should be the foundation on which all the other skills are eventually built.

Being able to replace a mask doesn't mean anything unless you can do it midwater, while controling position and maintaining buddy contact and awareness...or in the middle of an ascent or descent. The same is true for managing a free flow or any other individual skill we want to look at. Who cares what you can do while kneeling on the bottom in your own little world?

Going back to my earlier example, divers can't even begin to learn to correctly do a descent or ascent untill they start to get handy at buoyancy control. Why do so many agencies and instructors want to certify divers who can't even do a decent job at the VERY start of the dive....the descent?

The very existance of the PPB course is evidence that the whole approach taken to entry level training doesn't work.

If you get you students off the bottom, make them function with a buddy while they demonstrate all their skills...just like they have to do on a real dive, you'll find that they won't need a PPB class.

A PPB course is probably real good for divers who are taught to dive on their knees...."Hey doc, it hurts when I do that"...Doc "well don't do it".

When I teach PPB, we do a classroom session, a 2 hour pool session, then move onto the two Open Water dives. Much emphasis is placed on breathing, relaxation techniques and body positioning in the water. We review proper weighting guidelines and trim, adjusting based on their own gear that each diver (hopefully) by now has purchased.

Weighting guidlines are to be neutral with a near empty tank...review over!
You can't say that you review trim because it's never mentioned in the OW course. Although the OW course goes much better if you get this out of the way before even getting to far into confined water work.

It's all good stuff if it's taught when it's really needed. Selling it as a seperate course is fluff.

Questions specific to their "experience" with breathing or movement in the water can be addressed. The difference that I see in the students who go through PPB with me is HUGE. They go from "ok divers" to "in control...moving effortlessly through the water".

If you're seeing that big of a difference from this course, it just means that they stink when they initially get certified. I think our definitions of an "ok diver" are different. To me an "ok diver" is in control in the water and moving through the water effortlessly. I wouldn't be taking them from the pool to OW if they weren't.

Stop thinking of control in the water as an afterthought. Being in control in the water is what diving is. Without being able to do that we're just breathing underwater.

As for "no instruction needed after you're certified..."

If ALL skills in diving were really to be "mastered" in your OW class...well, then as an instructor, I'd have to charge a couple thousand dollars for my OW class, and my students would need to purchase all of their own gear BEFORE class. My OW class would need to consist of 50 OW dives and probably 10 pool sessions. AND...it would definitely be in excess of ANY training agencies OW and AOW put together.

A good 40 hour course for about $1200 should work pretty well.

We don't spend 10+ hours focusing on breathing and movement in the water in OW...but we do in Peak Perf. Buoyancy.

Maybe that's the problem. Spend a few hours in confined water getting them midwater and trimmed, then build some of those other skills on top of that foundation. You'll find that everything else goes much quicker and easier. THEN take them to open water and you'll see your students actually diving.

All we need to do is stop teaching all this stuff backwards. Buoyancy control, trim and the associated mechanics should come FIRST...not in some later course. As it is, the name of the OW diver course and certification should be changed from "open water diver" to "open water kneeler".

 

[Thalassamania]

I don’t think that youi realize what students are actually capable of. It occurs to me that your expectation of poor performance may hold them back.

But, I've yet to meet ANY students who, in their OW course, can absolutely MASTER buoyancy control, in addition to the other 18 skills they need to demonstrate.

What your saying is that you’ve never met a student from a class that actually met standards, correct?

"in control...moving effortlessly through the water".

Sounds like my definition of an “OK diver.”

If ALL skills in diving were really to be "mastered" in your OW class.. .

You mean like, meet standards?

I'd have to charge a couple thousand dollars for my OW class,

Yes, but notice price concerns are first on your list.

and my students would need to purchase all of their own gear BEFORE class.

Yes, mine always have.

My OW class would need to consist of 50 OW dives and probably 10 pool sessions. .

Actually you can do it in about 14 dives, 12 instructional pool sessions and 12 optional practice pool sessions.

AND...it would definitely be in excess of ANY training agencies OW and AOW put together.

Yes.

We don't use lift bags in OW class...

We do.

but we do in Search and Recovery specialty.

We do.

We don't spend 10+ hours focusing on breathing

We do.

and movement in the water in OW...

We do.

but we do in Peak Perf. Buoyancy.

We don’t need this program.

We do all this (and more) in a program that covers approximately 26 hours of lecture, 24 hours of pool instruction, 24 hours or optional pool practice time and 14 to 16 open water dives. And while you seem to feel that it would be hard to find students, I typically have had 100 applicants for 20 openings.

Cheers!

 

[dl348]

Does anyone actually care?