confused about advanced open water (PADI)

[Walter]

It's just a different system, not a worse one.

That's a matter of opinion. Depending on which particular system we are discussing, I may or may not agree.

There are many, many more divers now, than in the 1970's... and yet accident figures have declined sharply. Why is that?

What makes you think accidents are down? No one knows how many divers there are. No one knows how many dives are made in any given period of time. No one knows how many accidents take place. No one knows how many accidents are prevented by other divers. I do know there are a great deal more baby sitters we call dive masters than there were on dive boats in resort areas who prevent lots of clueless divers from hurting themselves. It is impossible to know if accidents or accident rates are going up, going down, or staying about the same.

Modern entry-level scuba courses contain a lot less

Some do, some don't. Some agencies still have high standards and some instructors from all agencies do as well.

I get so tired of the "Back in my day" statements because they are such BS!

No one here has made such a statement.

MY "back in the days" course did NOT teach me:

a. How to use an alternate air source;
b. How to use a Buoyancy Compensating Device;

Did either of them exist in 1967? That wasn't a lack in your class.

c. How to use an SPG;

They were rare, but honestly, what did you need to be taught to understand?

d. How to use a dive computer;

Were you taught how to use a computer in elementary school? I wasn't either. My children were. Were their educations better than mine simply because they grew up in the computer age while I was introduced to key punch in college?

e. How to decide on different types of fins;
f. How to maintain neutral buoyancy in the water column;
g. How to use lights for passive or active communication;

I would say your instructor cut some corners there.

h. How to use an underwater compass;

You think it's better today? Most divers still tell me they can't navigate. I concentrate on natural navigation in OW and give lots more time to compass in advanced classes.

i. How to use a dry suit;

That's not standard in any agency's OW class today either. If it had been covered, wouldn't you have had to relearn it after technology allowed divers to add air during a dive anyway?

Well, when you put OW and AOW together, they tend to BE the equivalent of "that" class

What you are telling me is AOW standards require the rescue and confidence building skills that were removed from some agencies' standards. Sorry Peter, but you are mistaken. The agencies that have removed rescue skills from their entry level class do not require them until their rescue class. Those that have removed confidence building skills never require most of them, but do require some at the DM level.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Well I like hard data as much or more than any, but I have no problem with the statement that;

"There are many, many more divers now, than in the 1970's"

The recent "recession" has probably trimmed the number of "brick and mortar" dive shops, and to a lesser extent the number of "dive boats" but is someone really arguing that there could possibly have been more divers back in the '70's than there are today?

It is no secret that DAN fatality statistics have decreased in recent decades; from ~100 deaths per year to ~90 deaths per year. (North America diving and North American divers abroad?)

It is a pretty well established "feeling" that there are more divers now and less divers are perishing. Diving is a less deadly activity now than it used to be.

Accidents are harder to discuss; what constitutes a diving accident?

Does an unguided dive with an uncontrollable ascent resulting in a bloody nose get counted as a dive accident?

 

[Peter Guy]

Walter -- you have completed missed my point -- either through too narrow a POV or deliberately -- but missed it you did.

My point is that Diving HAS CHANGED from the mid-60s where you "Kicked the tires and lit the fires" -- jumped in, swam down until you had to swim up (underweighted at the surface, overweighted at depth for those of us who had thick wetsuits) -- hoped you hadn't knocked your reserve lever down (or hoped you were close to the surface when your air did, in fact, run out).

We teach a lot of different things to students today that just didn't exist then.

Fins? Hey -- Walter -- how many different types (not brands) of fins were there -- paddle fins with open heel, paddle fins with full foot -- different looks, stiffness of paddle fins -- today, much more, and different, styles with different effects on diving.

Oh, and much of what was written was "Back in the day things were so much better, tougher, stronger, etc." despite your denial. I am NOT saying today's typical scuba class is better or prepares a "better" diver than the classes 40+ years ago -- but the class IS different and the technology of diving has led to a different set of issues and training techniques.

Oh, last thing -- can you agree to disagree with me as to what is really necessary for a "basic open water diver" to learn OR do you believe YOUR opinion is the only valid one?

 

[Blue Sparkle]

While "the book" says one can use the AOW dive towards the specialty, I've not really understood WHY someone would use it -- unless they are getting a price break -- and a real one at that. Especially if you aren't getting any sort of a price break, why NOT take all the dives and use them as a learning opportunity?

I think the quote you listed about that might have been mine. I can see it both ways, depending on the circumstances. That's why I said "can/may."

An example of "your" side: The first AOW class I signed up for, the price was the full one, and yet the instructor seemed so pleased to tell us that "hey, we'd been boat diving all week, so we could just sign off on the Boat dive and be one down!" Erm... yabut... I don't WANT to just "sign off" - I want to learn things! So in that case I had no interest such a concept. It would be like giving up 20% of my class. I had a very hard time "convincing" them why that did not seem like a great idea to me. So I'm totally with you there.

On the other side: After a few days and one adventure dive, it became clear that we would not be able to finish our AOW's with that shop, on that trip, as instructor-scheduling problems had come up. So we had to end our trip with it partially completed.

On our next dive trip, we wanted to complete the AOW with a different shop, but we already had the book, and one of the adventure dives, so we weren't paying the exact full price, nor buying the materials at the "new" shop. In that case we decided we'd rather "transfer" the one dive we already had, and go on from there (we were planning to take some Specialty classes anyway, so there was going to be plenty of instruction time).

Also, time and/or boat schedules could factor in on a vacation dive trip. They did for my buddy and I when we did a Specialty, for example, and by counting the corresponding dive from our AOW, we were able to complete the class, which was nice because we weren't sure how soon we would be diving together again or where it might be (well, I chose to thumb the last class dive, but my buddy did complete the class).

So, I can see it both (all?) ways, depending on the circumstances. But I do see your point in that why would one want to "give away" a chance to learn more (which concept I seemed to have a hard time conveying to the instructor vis-a-vis the "boat dive" situation).

I don't know whether a Specialty class price would typically vary depending on if you "brought over" one Adventure dive or not? I would think people would often do so, so maybe it's accounted for in some class prices?

 

[windapp]

Its like DSD's can be counted towards open water + scuba diver courses, but why would you unless your getting a price cut..

I got got almost the entire price of my DSD off my open water course, and I got to cut it short by a full day because I did 3 dives in one day. Because of that, I got to do my AOW the following weekend.

 

[The Chairman]

I don't see how such a policy would keep custoners happy, please explain.

People who are not having fun TALK about it. Keeping their customers happy is their most important job. Putting them in a situation that could endanger or frighten them is counter productive. Most people like rules and honor them easily. Even more people respect it when rules and policies are followed. Moreover, it simply exudes competence.

They are certainly following agency recommendations, not standards, in an attempt to limit their liability. Not being a lawyer, I'm not sure how successful they would be with such a policy.

Like liability releases, their effect is two fold.

1. They educate the consumer about potential risks and knowing is half the battle.
2. They also give the shop/charter a certain psychological advantage in any settlement or court proceedings.

Not letting OW divers exceed 60 would certainly limit the number of accidents they have from OW divers diving deep. On the other hand, what about that AOW with no or very limited deep experience who walks into the shop asking what dives are available? The employee asks about certifications and is told the diver has AOW. The diver is told about several interesting wrecks in the 100 ft range. The diver knows he has little experience with such depths and expresses doubts about his ability to make such a dive. The employee reassures him that with AOW he's ready to make the dive. The diver thinks, "they're experts, they should know," and signs up for the dive. It seems to me the operator has just opened themselves up to liability. Even if they haven't, they have just put this diver in jeopardy.

Have you thought about writing a dive thriller? I have never witnessed such a conversation or heard of one just like it. Without supporting evidence its just fantasy to me.

Many people do lie, but I can tell when I'm talking to a nondiver or a diver with very little experience even when they tell me they are very experienced. I'm sure you or another very experienced diver could coach a novice diver to a point they could fool me, but frankly you wouldn't do that nor would any other very experienced diver.

Anyone who spends a modicum amount of time here on SB could make a very convincing story. While you have complete confidence in your ability to discern all liars, I question my own as well as yours. You think you are an AOW? Show me the cert! You think you can cave dive? Show me the cert!

If you or I haven't seen it isn't the point. It happens.

Without evidence, it is merely apocryphal: a myth without substance.

I see some problems. One deep dive is simply not enough experience to really know what to expect on a deep dive. Diving in a quarry doesn't prepare a diver for seas or current.

Which should be a part of any training. Most training agencies push "similar or better" conditions.

I agree with most of this. The exception is your statement that divers learning on their own quite often die. That's simply not true. I agree that even one death is one too many, but we both know divers do stupid things quite often and almost always survive. In fact, they rarely have anything go wrong and don't realize what they did was stupid.

Unfortunately, I experienced friends dying while on Scuba from an early age. Cave country is full of stories of untrained diver being killed by their ignorance. As you say "It happens more than you think..."

 

[DevonDiver]

What makes you think accidents are down?

Accident statistics.

No one knows how many divers there are.

It's a simple task to compile the various agencies' training statistics.

No one knows how many dives are made in any given period of time.

Correct, it would be impossible to track every single dive conducted world-wide. However, accurate predictions can be gained by modelling, using a sample.

The overall size and activity of the scuba industry can be calculated. At least in enough accuracy to catagorically state that "there are many more divers now than in the 1970's"

No one knows how many accidents take place.

This information is compiled.

No one knows how many accidents are prevented by other divers.

Is a prevented accident still an accident?

If an accident is prevented by another diver, isn't that a success for the 'buddy system'? If the buddy system works, doesn't that support a notion that the PADI system of education + limitations (i.e. no solo diving) works?

I do know there are a great deal more baby sitters we call dive masters than there were on dive boats in resort areas who prevent lots of clueless divers from hurting themselves.

But that's all part of the system. giving novice divers support/supervision has been common for a long time...and is quite universal.

For PADI/SSI etc... it means you dive with a divemaster on your holiday.

For BSAC/CMAS etc... it means you dive with a diveleader in your club.

Same same, but different. It's just prudence.

It is impossible to know if accidents or accident rates are going up, going down, or staying about the same.

Nonsense.

 

[TexasKaren68]

ok so I signed up to advanced open water thinking it was a useful certification. I knew the 3 other specialties were just kind of a look into what you can do and not a certification in them. But since were REQUIRED to take deep diving and navigation are we atleast certified in those? I guess im confused about what advanced open water is. What exactly are people getting from this class?

What I'm getting from the class is more experience in the water with an instructor. I'm fairly confident about my skills in the water so far, but there is always more to learn. My AOW classes have been disastrous so far due to really crappy dive conditions but I wouldn't trade them for the world. I've learned an awful lot and the different adventure dives give me a great idea of just exactly how much I don't know and which areas I need to improve.

Those areas requiring the most improvement are going to be what I do my specialty dives in. I know need more navigation classes, so that will be where I start with specialties in a few months.

Agree'd..

Its like DSD's can be counted towards open water + scuba diver courses, but why would you unless your getting a price cut..

I remember when I first started to dive, I did a shoddy scuba diver course abroad, and payed for a full open water when I returned to the UK just because I wanted to dive more before I got qualified..

I did the same. I did a Discover Scuba over in Australia and I counted that towards nothing. I just looked at it as an intro to scuba but since I didn't get much real instruction, other than "never hold your breath" I didn't see that it should count for anything.

My Scuba Diver class (on a cruise and in Cozumel) was actually a pretty good one and I came away from it feeling pretty confident with the skills I learned. Nevertheless, I found a great opportunity to take the entire OW course at home after finding a gift certificate for the whole course on Craigslist at a significant discount, and repeated a lot of what I'd learned in the Scuba Diver course. I just felt that it was good practice and I wanted the extra two dives.

 

[jar546]

What I'm getting from the class is more experience in the water with an instructor.

That pretty much sums up PADI AOW. Just like I have an issue with the title "Master Scuba Diver" in another hot thread, I think PADI needs to rename their AOW since there really are no specialties involved that have any significant formal training.

I have taken the SSI AOW and the PADI AOW and there truly is no comparison. If any dive boats required AOW, I hope they are aware there are significant differences between agencies for the same title.

For example: SSI wanted you to have about a dozen dives under your belt before you can take AOW. There are 4 specialties that you have to do. Each involves class time and each involves a written test and two dives per specialty with an instructor. In navigation for example, during the 2 dives you have to perform a multitude of tasks. With PADI AOW there are no complete specialty courses, just touching the bases of the specialties.

Please don't turn this into a PADI vs SSI, as that is not the point. Each organization is only as good as the instructor who teaches the class but if we are going to have names for certifications, how about making them a little more alike in training.

 

[jar546]

I personally know two divers who were taken to 63 and 65 feet in a quarry that goes to just a bit more than that and counted as the deep dives in their AOW. For me a deep dive is as others noted -80-100 feet.

If part of a PADI AOW, I can see that happening as it is within the standards. If it was, however, for a specialty certifications, I too would certainly want to see the 80'-100' range but until minimum requirements are changed, this will continue to happen.