confused about advanced open water (PADI)

[Quero]

I have taken the SSI AOW and the PADI AOW and there truly is no comparison. If any dive boats required AOW, I hope they are aware there are significant differences between agencies for the same title.

For example: SSI wanted you to have about a dozen dives under your belt before you can take AOW. There are 4 specialties that you have to do. Each involves class time and each involves a written test and two dives per specialty with an instructor. In navigation for example, during the 2 dives you have to perform a multitude of tasks. With PADI AOW there are no complete specialty courses, just touching the bases of the specialties.

SSI's course which is equivalent to PADI AOW is called Advanced Adventurer. Note the word "advanced" in the name of the rating. SSI's AOW rating falls somewhere in between PADI's AOW and PADI's MSD. The MSD requires more than the SSI AOW, but the philosophy is similar with five specialties, 50 dives and Rescue being required for the PADI rating.

In the end, these are just words. IMO, some people make a tempest in a teacup about these terms.

 

[jar546]

In the end, these are just words. IMO, some people make a tempest in a teacup about these terms.

How very true. Again, it is the instructor that makes the difference in the quality of the student when completing a course. What they name certifications is another bone of contention.

From what I have read in some of Jim Lapenta's posts, I get the feeling his brand new certified OW students probably have a better skill set than most AOW divers who go right into AOW out of OW. Just saying the instructor plays a major role.

 

[Quero]

I imagine you are right about Jim's students. I believe I can say the same about my OW students, and in large part because I only do private instruction. Every minute in the pool or during the training dives is dedicated to that one (or at most two, if they are planning to be dive buddies) student(s). This kind of concentrated attention makes every hour in my class worth double or triple the time spend in a group class. By the time my students finish they are in trim, not swimming with their hands, holding safety stops, and able to do every skill smoothly in mid-water. It's not uncommon for my AOW students to get on our liveaboards here and after the first "checkout" dive be assigned to join a group of much more experienced divers, even when they have actually done relatively few dives. My own favorite way to teach AOW is aboard a liveaboard. That way my students get 14 dives under my supervision, and we put all the skills we work on into practice during every dive.

 

[Walter]

Walter -- you have completed missed my point -- either through too narrow a POV or deliberately -- but missed it you did.

My point is that Diving HAS CHANGED from the mid-60s where you "Kicked the tires and lit the fires" -- jumped in, swam down until you had to swim up (underweighted at the surface, overweighted at depth for those of us who had thick wetsuits) -- hoped you hadn't knocked your reserve lever down (or hoped you were close to the surface when your air did, in fact, run out).

If that was your point, I certainly did miss it. Maybe you should read your previous post. Your point seemed to be that classes today are better than classes in 1967.

Oh, and much of what was written was "Back in the day things were so much better, tougher, stronger, etc." despite your denial.

I missed that too, please point it out to me.

but the class IS different and the technology of diving has led to a different set of issues and training techniques.

That is not in dispute as far as I'm aware.

Oh, last thing -- can you agree to disagree with me as to what is really necessary for a "basic open water diver" to learn OR do you believe YOUR opinion is the only valid one?

Unless people are choosing sides for a debate and pick opposite sides solely for the purpose of holding the debate, no one ever agrees to disagree. They simply disagree.

What is really necessary for a "basic open water diver?" isn't the topic of this discussion and I have not expressed my opinion on that matter in this thread. If that's a topic that interests you, I'll be happy to discuss it with you in another thread. In such a discussion, of course we will both think we are correct and the other is wrong on those points on which we disagree. I suspect we will disagree less often than you might think. Where we do disagree, I promise to respect your opinion.

People who are not having fun TALK about it. Keeping their customers happy is their most important job. Putting them in a situation that could endanger or frighten them is counter productive. Most people like rules and honor them easily. Even more people respect it when rules and policies are followed. Moreover, it simply exudes competence.

So when a diver with thousands of dives, hundreds of them in excess of 100 ft, is not allowed to make a dive to 90 ft because he has no AOW card he will be happy about it because he likes to follow rules? Because the dive to 90 ft would frighten him? He now has confidence in the competence of the operation because they recognized the AOW diver with one dive to 60 ft is much more qualified to make this dive. Suddenly it's so clear. He certainly won't talk about not having fun.

Without evidence, it is merely apocryphal: a myth without substance.

So you are saying tddfleming and Jim Lapenta are making up myths. I believe what they've told us. I'm sorry you think they aren't truthful.

Cave country is full of stories of untrained diver being killed by their ignorance. As you say "It happens more than you think..."

There is a big difference between progressively diving deeper and diving in caves without training.

Accident statistics.

Unfortunately there are no valid diving accident statistics.

It's a simple task to compile the various agencies' training statistics.

True and if that would tell us the number of divers, you would have a point. Unfortunately, it won't. Assuming only entry level certifications are counted (not an assumption I'd make), the number will still be way off. A small percentage (but a large number, I'd guess) get two or more entry level certs because their instructor is cross certified and it's available for a small additional fee. I have two entry level certs. Those folks are all counted twice, sometimes more than twice. Most divers stop diving for one reason or another. I'd guess the majority never dive after their check out dives. Total number of divers is grossly over reported.

The overall size and activity of the scuba industry can be calculated. At least in enough accuracy to catagorically state that "there are many more divers now than in the 1970's"

I agree there are probably many more divers now than there were in the 1970s (no apostrophe).

This information is compiled.

Accident information is compiled. That is true. What is not true is that all accidents are reported or that all those that are reported gets included in the compilation. Total accidents is under reported.

Is a prevented accident still an accident?

Of course not, but it does indicate a problem and perhaps a very serious proplem.

If an accident is prevented by another diver, isn't that a success for the 'buddy system'?

If it was the buddy who prevented the accident, yes. Often it was someone who was not buddied with the diver. Either way, it shows one success and one failure, not exactly something to brag about.

If the buddy system works, doesn't that support a notion that the PADI system of education + limitations (i.e. no solo diving) works?

If a system (and I'm not claiming PADI's system does, although you seem to be doing so) depends on others to intervene to prevent accidents, I would not say that system works. I would try to get to the root cause of the potentional accidents and fix that problem.

But that's all part of the system. giving novice divers support/supervision has been common for a long time...and is quite universal.

It's far from universal. It's not how any system was designed, it has evolved in lots of resort areas because too many divers cannot dive safely on their own, although their c-card states they can.

For PADI/SSI etc... it means you dive with a divemaster on your holiday.

There are still competent divers out there who do not need nor want to dive with a divemaster and resent anyone trying to decree they must dive with one.

Nonsense.

Until we have a much better idea of the number of divers or the number of dives and until all accidents are included in dive accident compilations, it will be impossible to know if accidents or accident rates are going up, going down, or staying about the same. Anyone who thinks published accident statistics mean anything believes nonsense.

 

[The Chairman]

So when a diver with thousands of dives, hundreds of them in excess of 100 ft, is not allowed to make a dive to 90 ft because he has no AOW card he will be happy about it because he likes to follow rules?

It's a common human condition to feel that one is "above" the rules. I would suggest that such a person is an exception rather than the rule.

Because the dive to 90 ft would frighten him? He now has confidence in the competence of the operation because they recognized the AOW diver with one dive to 60 ft is much more qualified to make this dive. Suddenly it's so clear.

Sure, in the same vein, I had close to 300 dives when I finally got certified. People would not let me rent tanks or regs without that pesky cert card. Would you? Was I upset? No, I was disappointed until I finally went and got certified. Why did I wait so long? I guess I felt I was special. Am I glad that I finally got certified? Certainly. It has enhanced my fun considerably. In fact, education has that effect on most people. If you want to do the dives, get the appropriate certs. It's not my fault that you don't have them.

So you are saying tddfleming and Jim Lapenta are making up myths. I believe what they've told us. I'm sorry you think they aren't truthful.

Wow. You certainly have a way of distorting my words to try to make me look pathetic. I don't know how many tddfleming cited, but Jim cited only TWO instances. That's what most people would call statistically insignificant. If you want to distort reality and contend that every AOW class only trains you to 61 ft, then who am I to stop you. In fact, I'll take the hint and leave you alone with your distortions. You obviously are more intent on portraying me as calling others liars than discussing the topic at hand.

 

[Walter]

I would suggest that such a person is an exception rather than the rule.

Of course they are the exception, but they are not rare. They also take their business to operators who are more reasonable than the ones you feel exude competence.

Sure, in the same vein, I had close to 300 dives when I finally got certified. People would not let me rent tanks or regs without that pesky cert card.

There are still divers who are very active with lots of experience and no certification. That's a totally different topic and is unrelated to the one we are discussing.

You certainly have a way of distorting my words to try to make me look pathetic.

I haven't distorted anything. You said AOW classes that count deep dives to about 60 feet are a myth. You're exact words were, "Without evidence, it is merely apocryphal: a myth without substance." A myth either concerns a traditional or legendary story or is any invented story, idea, or concept. Since this has nothing to do with traditional or legendary story, you must have meant it was invented. If you did not mean that, you should explain what you did want to communicate because you did state they made it all up.

I don't know how many tddfleming cited, but Jim cited only TWO instances. That's what most people would call statistically insignificant.

Had you stated Jim's examples were statistically insignificant instead of a myth, I would not have disagreed. On the other hand, tddfleming said it was typical near where he lives. I suspect it is rare where deeper water is readily available, but typical where it isn't.

If you want to distort reality and contend that every AOW class only trains you to 61 ft, then who am I to stop you.

I've made no such claim. I've stated more than once that it's rare where deep water is readily available. On the other hand, standards allow it without reaching 61 ft, you can certify AOW with one dive to 60 ft, a depth that can be reached within OW training standards. Why do you think AOW qualifies a diver to make 100 ft dives? All you've said so far is those are the rules and rules are fun to follow. You've yet to explain why you think it's a good rule.

 

[tddfleming]

Sorry guys, jumping in here again. I am not sure who does not believe me or not or even if that was really suggested. But here in this area, from which stores come from MD, VA and NC, I think I have also seen a WV store. All which use this quarry for training. Here is the quote from the qurries website: With a maximum depth of 65 feet, warm water, and good visibility (30 to 60 feet), the lake has many wonders to explore.
Just of my family, all 3 of us have received our AOW from this quarry and from 2 different shops. I may not agree with saying we have done a deep dive, but the reality is that it counts toward our AOW and many LDS are using the site for this. However, to get our deep speciality, we will need to go to NC. I myself would not be comfortable going below for which I have actually been. I look at the AOW more as five dives with someone with a little more knowledge and experience than myself. I think being a responsible diver one has to go a few steps further. We are going to Morehead at the end of the month for our first boat dive, in shore, which means max depth should be 65'. At this point, we have our sac rates figured for all 3 of us. We have figured out in order for all of us to get approx the same bottom time at the max depth what size tanks we all will need. Daughter gets to still use the al80, I will have to move up to HP100 and husband will dive with his HP130.

I have since gone back to try and figure out this thread. I think Walter may have hit it. Since this is our closet scuba quarry and used by many LDS for training, it is common to use it for AOW even though its max depth is 65' (I think this depth may be pushed a little) as there is only one place to reach it. They use what they have, which is this site.