confused about advanced open water (PADI)

[The Chairman]

If it only depended solely on the instructor and the work done in the class that would be wonderful. But there is nearly always backsliding (regardless of the pursuit, whether it's scuba, a foreign language class, or learning how to write html); former students sometimes just forget what we worked hard to instill, or they get lazy about implementing certain techniques. From that point, solidifying bad habits is a short step.

Not to mention them imitating the peeps they dive with. Unless you are teaching a variant of the "Don't dive with Strokes!", then they will be exposed to diving styles that we may not like.

 

[DevonDiver]

Yep...a couple of holidays with insta-buddies on a cattle boat... following a disinterested dive guide like sheep... can quickly divorce even the best trained novice diver from their training, personal responsibility and common sense.

 

[Walter]

You really need to be suspicious of operators who are willing to allow you to dive substantially beyond your previous limits without really good supervision.

I would be more cautious of operators who placed depth limits based on OW vs AOW. A discussion with the diver about his actual experience will tell me much more about what dives are likely to be safe for them to make. There are lots of OW divers with considerable deep experience while there are many AOW divers with none or almost none. Keep in mind a 60 ft deep dive is considered deep for the AOW class. That's not a deep dive and certainly doesn't qualify a diver to make unsupervised deep dives.

 

[The Chairman]

I would be more cautious of operators who placed depth limits based on OW vs AOW.

Not me. It's my opinion that they are attempting to follow industry standards to keep their customer's happy and to ameliorate exposure to litigation.

A discussion with the diver about his actual experience will tell me much more about what dives are likely to be safe for them to make.

Many divers lie. Remember that one kid who was asking us about how to get certified one week and the next he was bragging about getting china off of the Doria? I am happy that there are operators who ask to see OWs and AOWs before leaving the dock.

There are lots of OW divers with considerable deep experience while there are many AOW divers with none or almost none. Keep in mind a 60 ft deep dive is considered deep for the AOW class.

I have yet to see such an AOW class. Most that I am aware of take the student to the 80-100' range. Do you consider that deep or do you have a personal definition of what constitutes deep?

That's not a deep dive and certainly doesn't qualify a diver to make unsupervised deep dives.

There's a lot to be said for a diver who has elected to extend his training over one who has not. The school of hard knocks is a harsh mentor and quite often kills the pupil. Far better to learn something from someone who has been there and is trained to monitor you on your first deep dive.

 

[windapp]

I would be more cautious of operators who placed depth limits based on OW vs AOW. A discussion with the diver about his actual experience will tell me much more about what dives are likely to be safe for them to make. There are lots of OW divers with considerable deep experience while there are many AOW divers with none or almost none. Keep in mind a 60 ft deep dive is considered deep for the AOW class. That's not a deep dive and certainly doesn't qualify a diver to make unsupervised deep dives.

Very good point. It makes me think about insta-buddies. Would anybody here be insulted if an insta-buddy asked to review your dive log before diving with you?

Also, for me personally, I have my AOW but I only have 2 deep dives (to 85 and 92 feet). I would be very comfortable diving to 100 ft in a well organized charter with a dive master present (not necessarily close at all times) after being fully briefed on what to expect at depth. I would not be comfortable diving to that depth in waters where I couldn't get a decent familiarization, and where very good surface supervision was unavailable.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I personally know two divers who were taken to 63 and 65 feet in a quarry that goes to just a bit more than that and counted as the deep dives in their AOW. For me a deep dive is as others noted -80-100 feet.

And I do agree with reinforcing good diving habits. It's unfortunate that we have to do that but it is a reality. That some allow themselves to slide is depressing given the time, money, and effort that they spend to dive in the first place.

 

[tddfleming]

I personally know two divers who were taken to 63 and 65 feet in a quarry that goes to just a bit more than that and counted as the deep dives in their AOW. For me a deep dive is as others noted -80-100 feet.And I do agree with reinforcing good diving habits. It's unfortunate that we have to do that but it is a reality. That some allow themselves to slide is depressing given the time, money, and effort that they spend to dive in the first place.

Jim:

In our area the quarry used is only 65' if you lay down and bury your gauge. So in the AOW out here that is your deep dive. However, I think that it becomes the students responsibility to know the difference. I know what I have done and I am not signing up for the off shore dives in Morehead. Thinking that I am good for deep. I have a little more sense than God gave a billy goat. This would not just be me, I think this would include anyone that got their AOW in this area using the quarry. While I think that deeper would be better, so would gas planning but those just ain't going to happen.

 

[Quero]

Also, for me personally, I have my AOW but I only have 2 deep dives (to 85 and 92 feet). I would be very comfortable diving to 100 ft in a well organized charter with a dive master present (not necessarily close at all times) after being fully briefed on what to expect at depth. I would not be comfortable diving to that depth in waters where I couldn't get a decent familiarization, and where very good surface supervision was unavailable.

I think most divers are cautious in this same way. I believe it's hyperbole to claim that divers are convinced by the name of the course "Advanced" or the theoretical depth limit imposed (100 ft) that they are qualified to do particular dives because they hold the certification. Most people simply aren't that clueless; only a very few newly qualified divers I've met (whether OW or AOW) recklessly push their limits of experience in this way. Mostly these wild divers are young men (or men who never got past late adolescence in their emotional development), and they don't even need an Advanced card to decide to push beyond 100 foot limits (or ride a motorcycle without a helmet, or drink and drive, etc.).

Blue Sparkle said it very well in a different thread:

Driving: Now there is something that many people say is much more dangerous than SCUBA diving. Certainly it can be very dangerous. And yet, I remember my driver's ed. training as being a few filmstrips and then two or three days in the car with a guy who was not really all that interested or enthusiastic, where we drove around the lake and admired the scenery.... The tests consisted of a written true false exam that was pretty simple, and then driving around some cones and painted lines on a mock street behind the DOT building. And there I was, a newly minted driver. Supposedly ready to take on rush-hour freeways, icy highways, and dark, curving backroads. Only of course I wasn't.... And that seemed to be common knowledge.

I simply don't believe that the words used on the certification document or the theoretical maximum depth of certification come into play when individuals make their decisions on the dives they are comfortable in doing. I give most people--with the exception of a few cowboys--more credit for intelligence than that.

As tddfleming said above:

In our area the quarry used is only 65' if you lay down and bury your gauge. So in the AOW out here that is your deep dive. However, I think that it becomes the students responsibility to know the difference. I know what I have done and I am not signing up for the off shore dives in Morehead thinking that I am good for deep. I have a little more sense than God gave a billy goat. This would not just be me, I think this would include anyone that got their AOW in this area using the quarry.

 

[The Chairman]

I personally know two divers who were taken to 63 and 65 feet in a quarry that goes to just a bit more than that and counted as the deep dives in their AOW. For me a deep dive is as others noted -80-100 feet.

There will always be abuses of the system. Two out of how many? To me, that's pretty insignificant and indicates that it's not the norm.

 

[Frosty]

Ya know guys I get the frustration some feel over the whole Padi training system.
I must ask though. Does anyone remember what rec diver training was like before Padi/Naui?
At least nowadays there are standards and established safe limits to offer some level of "safety" for a rec diver.