Concerning Assymetrical fills

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See, you were suppose to roll the tanks first :wink: Great experiment Rick. I don't think the open isolator measurements will give any meaningful reading because you are getting random portions of gas out of each side. But I did always believe they would mix sooner than that.
 
Great work, Rick.

Regards,
 
Just for grins and giggles, and because Spectre suggested it, the set of doubles is in the back of the Suburban right now, riding around with me and getting unevenly heated and cooled by the sun/shade, and bounced around on rough roads. With the isolator open.
I don't think the bouncing around will cause much mixing through that manifold, but the uneven heating and cooling ought to get at least something mixing.
Analysis scheduled for Wednesday afternoon.
After that they get drained, and filled for the weekend :)
Rick
 
Interesting experiment. With the bottles having the same pressure
( 500 psi ) I don't see how the 2 gases would mix. The pressure at the manifold would be equal . When the manifold is open 500 meets 500.

I think IMHO that you saw the activity when the manifold was open is because the two met in the manifold.

Try increasing the tank pressure in one of the tanks and see what happens.

On a Nitrox fill, adding O2 to air, the tank has to sit awhile before they combined. That is why rolling the tanks speeds up the process.

Just my $.02

Still a good experiment though.
 
Great work Rick. This weekend after the barbecue you can research the mixing coefficients of Methane and Sulphur Dioxide.
 
Great information, Rick. Your findings do make sense though. I guess this hammers in the necessity to always analyze both valves on doubles, especially if you're not filling your own tanks. Looking forward to tomorrow's post.
 
"Never dive or allow yourself to be encapsulated in a chamber with a gas that you have not personally analyzed." Dick Rutkowski, June 1988........
 
Tom Smedley:
Great work Rick. This weekend after the barbecue you can research the mixing coefficients of Methane and Sulphur Dioxide.
What? Yew bringin' baked beans again?
Rick :D
 
Baked beans and fried cabbage. Am going to the Farmer's Market tomorrow to see if they have any Mississippi Reds. Was up at the farm a couple of weeks ago and had gobs of Muscadines and Scuppernongs hanging from the vines. The dang deer got them all. I hope each and evey one of them don't sleep from incessant gas pains.
 
Casting my mind back to long ignored rules of physics:

Effect of Temperature:

The rate of gas diffusion is based on the kinetic energy of the molecules present in the mix. From memory, kinetic energy is proportional to absolute temperature. Therefore at absolute zero there would be no diffusion and no mixing at all.

At most average temperature ranges, the change in diffusion rates between highs and lows are not great. Temperature won't have a huge effect.

Incidentally, it is the kinetic energy of the molecules in a gas that cause it to have "pressure". Basically, the molecules have more energetic collisions at higher temperatures and so the force exerted on whatever they run into (tank walls, gauges, each other) is greater. Pressure = force/area.

Effect of Pressure:

Not really applicable, but for completeness...

If there was some difference in pressure between the two tanks when the isolator was opened there would be an equalisation of pressure. The rate of equalisation is proportional to the difference in the pressure. This flow of gas would also agitate the mix in the receiving tank and help combine the gases.

Actually, this might explain why the analyser went silly while testing with the isolator open. The flow from the other tank through the manifold bar would be mixing with the contents of the tank being tested - but not mixing thoroughly hence the fluctuations.

Size of Orifice:

Rapidly getting out of my depth here... not a fluid mechanics scholar...

The cross sectional area of the orifice through which the gas must diffuse has a big effect on the rate of diffusion. In this case the manifold bar.

From memory (and it's very foggy in here) changing the cross sectional area effects the rate of diffusion as the square of the change. ie: twice the area = 4 x diff rate. I might be very wrong here so please don't quote me. Are there any fluid engineers out there who can remember orifice theory vs gaseous phase diffusion???

Other Factors:

One probably has to consider differences in molecular weight as well but given the small difference between N2 and O2 this might not be a biggie.

Mechanical mixing will probably make a difference. Using the displacement method of inerting large (60000m3) LNG tanks on a ship works better in calm weather. Rough weather results in mixing of the gases and the resulting dilution method requires a whole heap (4x or more) extra inerts. Then again, the degree of mixing through the small orifice in the manifold may be negligble.

Conclusion:

I don't know what the standard protocol is for filling twin tanks with mix but looking at it from the outside I think this is what I would do:


1. Open the isolator before filling.
2. Close the isolator before analysis.
3. Analyse both tanks separately - be worried if there is a difference in the analyses.



Then again, I could be full of s#1t!


For the record - my money is on the bouncing round in the back of the truck and exposure to temperature fluctations making bugger all difference!


LOL
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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