Computers & DIR

[waynne fowler]

Here's the part that rubs me wrong right here.
How do you know that what GUE taught you gets you out cleaner? Do you do doppler tests or something, or do you just believe their software more for some reason? What is that reason.

Yes there is doppler evidence that shows that the GUE/WKPP method of deco does indeed get you out of the water cleaner.

I was under the impression that all this deco stuff was all based on theory (else there wouldn't be so many different models out there).

You are quite correct. It is all just theory. You can probably take any of the present theorys and run with it just as a computer/PC spits it out and be ok.. but being ok doesn't mean that you optimize your deco. That is one of the problems with the dive computer. I can go down to 130' and spend 50 minutes. As long as I started from a specific baseline (i.e.. no dives in....let's say 7 day's) the computer will give me the same deco time after time. But over the course of several dives like the above mentioned, I may run into a variety of variables that are not the same dive to dive. (current on one dive,,, fatigue on another,, improper hydration,, colder temps on another,, elevated breathing rate or stress level... get the implication?) A computer cannot take any of these things into account. If buy using my head I can do just as good a job as my computer in the basic sense and then I can (on top of that) exceed a computers performance by being able to extrapolate an ascent schedule that does take into account any or all of these variables AND that will actually (if the dopplers can be believed) get me out of the water cleaner... well...

I could very well be wrong and maybe they have got it all down to a science, but it would seem that if that were the case, all computers would be the same.

Any insight to this would be great.

Thanks!

It's not down to a science. Anyone that does deco must remember that you are being a human guinie pig of sorts.. However the WKPP method has been extensively tested albiet on a relatively small group of very fit divers.. but getting larger as it is more and more adopted by the larger technical community.. However the ascent stratagies probably have great application potential for the recreational divers as well.

I hope not to sound as if I have all the answers, I have presented to you what I know on the subject, of course I cannot help but bring to the table my own personal bias. TIFWIW

 

[waynne fowler]

I'm going to pop the DVD in tonight and go back over what he talks about with deco and transcribe the part that he talks about bubbling on shallow stops, I could have sworn thats what he said.

you are right! He does talk about bubbling... As I understand it there is no question that you will bubble at the shallow stops.. the point is that the bubbling is kept to a minimun.. that is the job of the deep stops.. to get the gas load down to a level that at the shallower stops the bubbles remain manageable by the lungs. This is the reason that the WKPP guys get out of the water so clean with little or no bubbling at all they did it all underwater where it is safe to do so.

 

[JeffG]

you are right! He does talk about bubbling... As I understand it there is no question that you will bubble at the shallow stops.. the point is that the bubbling is kept to a minimun.. that is the job of the deep stops.. to get the gas load down to a level that at the shallower stops the bubbles remain manageable by the lungs. This is the reason that the WKPP guys get out of the water so clean with little or no bubbling at all they did it all underwater where it is safe to do so.

The other flip side of the coin is to keep ascending to keep the offgassing to the maximum.

 

[waynne fowler]

The other flip side of the coin is to keep ascending to keep the offgassing to the maximum.

I assume you don't mean continueous ascent from depth omitting mandantory stops... a bit confussed here. sorry if I'm don't get your intended implication

 

[JeffG]

I assume you don't mean continueous ascent from depth omitting mandantory stops... a bit confussed here. sorry if I'm don't get your intended implication

oops, let me try to rephrase...Its more to the point of that deco stops follow the laws of diminishing returns. So when you have gotten the benefit of that stop, its time to move to the next one.

So...its a balancing act, between keeping bubbles down, but always trying to maximize the offgassing.

 

[HarryH97]

Here's the part that rubs me wrong right here.
How do you know that what GUE taught you gets you out cleaner? Do you do doppler tests or something, or do you just believe their software more for some reason? What is that reason.

I was under the impression that all this deco stuff was all based on theory (else there wouldn't be so many different models out there). I could very well be wrong and maybe they have got it all down to a science, but it would seem that if that were the case, all computers would be the same.

Any insight to this would be great.

Thanks!

I don't know that I'll be cleaner. What I did say was that I'll need to actually dive those VR3 profiles and see how I feel immediate out of the water, and at 30 min intervals after surfacing. If I feel tired or sleepy it wasn't optimal. Of course each body is different. What I can tell you is that the deco I use is simple, highly adjustable, and I feel like a million bucks and know I'm clean after I take all my gear off. I was taught this through GUE education. By that I mean we learn how to shape our ascent curves on the fly, understand where we accept risk, where we minimize it, and how we go about taking advantage of the O2 window and gradient. The situation that you're in produces different ascent strategies. Once you understand how this effects your own body along with minor modifications to compensate for that "fresh" feeling, you can go anywhere in the water column at any depth for any duration (recreational or technical) and know how to safely come to the surface without any computer, nor software. I don't stay unnecessarily long, but that too is a matter of perspective. GUE teaches a little longer deco for shorter exposure dives and shorter deco for longer exposure dives. I can tell you that the deco works for me. I also consider myself reasonably fit by most fitness standards, and generally in good condition prior to entering the water: hydrated, rested, etc...

Of course you too can do your own tests, provided you've got a good educational background on deco and understand where and how much to place your times. Log your post dive bodily reactions (how you feel). Do you feel like doing a 50 yd dash or is it time to eat and take a nap? If things aren't right, you should be tired or at worse have a little soreness, tingling, joint pains that are all Type I that will eventually go away. If you do this, make sure you hydrate well and are well rested to get all the other variables constant.

Remember too that those WKPP profiles and GUE technical profiles in the shallow stops use maximum benefit of O2 starting at 20ft, so there's no additional inert gas loading and that the lungs would be your final line for clearing any microbubbles. In fact, a simple PFO test will push lots of microbubbles into your blood stream. You can see the effect of the lungs when the ultrasound checks the heart and there's no bubbles on the other side. That's unless you've got a PFO. It's your call if you want to spend the extra 10-60 mins in the shallows not to have a single microbubble in your blood stream. I think I've found the right amount of deco that gets me out on time and feeling really good. Even if its a little longer on these shorter exposure dives, simply because I have the freedom to readjust all my calculations on the fly as situations dictate. And my friend you most certainly don't have to go this route.

As always, YMMV.

Sincerely,
H2

 

[HarryH97]

Harry.... Harry is that you? : monkeydan

We've got a dive going to the Knot on the Sunday after thanksgiving...if there's still room we'd love to have you.

PM Sent.

 

[waynne fowler]

oops, let me try to rephrase...Its more to the point of that deco stops follow the laws of diminishing returns. So when you have gotten the benefit of that stop, its time to move to the next one.

So...its a balancing act, between keeping bubbles down, but always trying to maximize the offgassing.

Without question

 

[Nemrod]

"Of course you too can do your own tests, provided you've got a good educational background on deco and understand where and how much to place your times. Log your post dive bodily reactions (how you feel). Do you feel like doing a 50 yd dash or is it time to eat and take a nap? If things aren't right, you should be tired or at worse have a little soreness, tingling, joint pains that are all Type I that will eventually go away. If you do this, make sure you hydrate well and are well rested to get all the other variables constant."


If your pushing your dives to the point of being "sore and tingly" your on the edge of an abyss from which a safe and full recovery cannot be guaranteed. The bends are not fun! Good luck with that. There are those who might consider this aspect of DIR DIW, no recompression chamber handy--holy cow. N

 

[RTodd]

"Of course you too can do your own tests, provided you've got a good educational background on deco and understand where and how much to place your times. Log your post dive bodily reactions (how you feel). Do you feel like doing a 50 yd dash or is it time to eat and take a nap? If things aren't right, you should be tired or at worse have a little soreness, tingling, joint pains that are all Type I that will eventually go away. If you do this, make sure you hydrate well and are well rested to get all the other variables constant."


If your pushing your dives to the point of being "sore and tingly" your on the edge of an abyss from which a safe and full recovery cannot be guaranteed. The bends are not fun! Good luck with that. There are those who might consider this aspect of DIR DIW, no recompression chamber handy--holy cow. N

This discussion is going back and forth from open water dives to deco dives. What was described would be hard for most pure recreational divers to subjectively evaluate. For true, exploration level deco dives, at best you will do dives that result in small niggles. More likely, you will eventually take a hit. The DIR methods are designed to make the hits the easily managed type 1 variety. I know very few explorers who have not taken at least one chamber ride and have not had numerous other episodes that did not warrant a trip.