Comparing S600 versions

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Not out of your mind, but unless you already have the second stages and parts I would suggest going to a Balanced Adjustable or a G250 and eliminate all the silly monkey motion found in the s600. Not only will you have a top notch regulator, but you'll have access to parts that can be easily sourced for years to come. If you go with the s600, then you'll be stuck trying to find parts like the over complicated-model specific balance chamber and adjustment assembly of the s600. The G250 HP has the same issues. Even SP recognized this in a short lived moment of sanity when they went back to basics and developed the G250V.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. If you're looking to self-service, the original G250 is very hard to beat. It's not that the S600 isn't a fine 2nd stage, but I just don't know if there's any practical advantage over the G250.

What I'm somewhat familiar with is the "configuration A and B" versions of the S600, with the primary difference being that in the "B" version, there is a pneumatic anti set feature. In both versions there are lots of extra o-rings and plastic parts in the inhalation adjustment mechanism, whereas on the old G250 (and G250V) there is only a metal threaded adjustment rod.

The kicker about the S600 service manual is that after all the steps of fiddling with the fine adjustment bits, it says to adjust the cracking effort to 1.0-1.4" of water, which is a huge range that could result in nothing better than mediocre performance.
 
I think that, unfortunately, they purged his account from SB and he is no longer a member of SB. VERY stupid and vicious thing what they did.
Sheesh! Why would anyone even think to do something like this? :(:confused:
As you can see, BurhanMuntasser likes to stir the pot with distortion after distortion. We don't delete accounts, and until this past software upgrade, it was nigh impossible for us to do so. Unfortunately, awap asked one of our staff who unfortunately obliged him by deleting his account. It was stupid, but we can't undo that now. Awap was not kicked out. He was not banished. It was his decision to leave. He simply took his toys and went home. He can rejoin at any time. However, it did not delete any of awap's content. It did make them almost impossible to find because it can't search for him as a user. Yet another reason why we don't simply delete accounts and everyone on staff understands this now.



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I don't visit Scubaboard much any more either. I got really tired of the drama. I mostly log in after someone PM's me for input or when I have a very specific reason for looking for a particular topic in one of the sub forums.

But...having been invited I'll put in a few thoughts on S600 evolution - starting with the G500.

A couple decades or so after God created the Balanced Adjustable and about a decade after he took an air barrel and poppet from the BA to create the G250, Scubapro created the G500, which was the precursor to the S600. The G500 came in two versions - the Italian assembled G500s with the black purge cover and the US assembled version with the gray purge cover. I was advised a long time ago in a tech service class that the Italian version was superior and over the years, on average, I've found that to be the case. Those Italian assembled black purge covered G500s are superb little second stages and if you find one buy it. If you have one, don't 'upgrade' it.

There was a reason why Scubapro moved away from the G250, other than just the quest for smaller size to keep up with competitors who hyped smaller size second stages. On the earlier Balanced Adjustable and G250, as well as the later G250V, their single adjustment design meant that the engineering and manufacturing tolerances had to be spot on. This included the pressure of the spring, which had to be exactly right over a precise working range, to ensure maximum performance (minimum cracking effort), while having the correct lever height (with maximum working range for the valve). That's the case because the only adjustment is in the seating depth of the orifice (which controls both lever height, which in turn impacts working range of the valve) and the initial cracking effort as the depth of the orifice controls the spring pressure acting on the balance chamber. If the spring is too light, the orifice has to be screwed in too far, which lowers the lever and reduces the working range of the valve which reduces the flow rate of the second stage. If the spring is too heavy, the cracking effort ends up being too high, as the orifice can only be backed out so far before the lever contacts the diaphragm and purge cover, initiating a free flow. As a result Scubapro hand picked (and still does) the springs for these second stages, putting the rejects into other dual adjustment models, where being a bit off didn't matter.

The 'benefit' of the G500 an the "improved" G250HP was that these regulators used an integrated balance chamber and adjustment knob that incorporated a micro adjust feature that could increase or decrease pressure on the spring to allow the orifice to be adjusted to produce optimum lever height, while using the micro adjust to precisely adjust the spring pressure on the balance chamber. It worked spectacularly well in the G500. The G250HP on the other hand was a steaming pile of crap with at best mediocre performance.

The only 'problem' with the G500 (and G250HP) was that the balance chamber was open ended once the cap on the end was removed, so air on adjustments required a special tool that was screwed into the end of the balance chamber to make the adjustment. I don't know why that was regarded as being such a big deal, particularly, as once the adjustment was made, provided the same spring was used in the second stage, there was seldom a need to make that adjustment in subsequent annual services.

None the less, Scubapro redesigned the adjustment knob to allow air on adjustment without anything more complicated than a screw driver. Scubapro also decided that 'lighter is better' and developed a plastic air barrel. Thus, with those two "improvements" the S600 was born.

The changes were backward compatible in the event that anyone wanted to update a G500 to an S600. Not that anyone who understood the performance differences would actually want to do that. However I suspect a lot of people did so because it would 'upgrade' their 'old' G500 to a shiny 'new' S600 - and of course Scubapro dealers could make some money on the 'upgrade' if they marked up the required parts.

Now...to be fair any performance decrease with the new balance chamber design was slight, and probably subjective, but it added complexity for the dubious benefit of some very minor ease in servicing the second stage. It was however a predictable change for Scuabpro to make as they have a history of trying to make servicing easier, not so much to be kind to tech, but in recognition that many techs are just a short step above trained monkeys. That might be hyperbole, but it's accurate to say that most regulator techs in general *might* know how to use a torque wrench but only a small percentage really understand the finer points of some of the operating principles in some of the designs.

As an aside, that's a major reason why Scubapro discontinued the excellent D400. (After of course they gutted its performance by making changes to the lever to meet CE free flow standards, and replacing the aspirator with one that used a plastic orifice, since too many monkeys were damaging the non replaceable orifice in the original D300, D350 and D400).

The major downside with the S600, compared to the G500 was the loss of the excellent metal air barrel. I don't think anyone noticed the lighter weight of the plastic air barrel, but nearly all divers noted the cascade effects of the plastic air barrel in terms of increased dry mouth and reduced cold water reliability.

Metal air barrels conduct heat well, so they get cool along their length due to the expanding air drawing heat from the air barrel. That cool surface then causes moisture in the diver's exhaled air to cool and condense on the air barrel, where it is recycled, reducing dry mouth.

At the same time, that metal air barrel, in contact with the metal nut on the inlet fitting and the metal on the hose end itself, all help transfer heat from the water outside the regulator into the air barrel, which helps prevent ice in the air barrel and on the lever, in very cold water conditions (under 40 degrees). This greatly improves cold water reliability.

Over the course of several years technicians also started noting that the plastic air barrels were prone to cracking where they attached to the metal inlet fitting. This was due to dimensional instability in the plastic used, which caused it to shrink slightly over time, which over the dimensionally stable inlet fitting caused cracks to form in the plastic. Most have just one crack, but I've seen a fair number with cracks on all 4 sides.

Scubapro initially blamed a contractor of using the wrong grind (mix of plastics used to make the part). They replaced them for free (and they still do), and after years of dealing with cracked air barrels, they've went back to metal air barrels to 'improve cold water performance'. That's no doubt true, but I suspect Scuabpro is tired of replacing air barrels for free as well. They'll continue to replace plastic air barrels with new plastic ones until current stocks of plastic barrels are exhausted and then they'll replace them with all metal air barrels.

The good news is that I am not aware of any cracked air barrel actually failing, so it's a purely preventative step by Scuabpro, but one that will ultimately do way with the cheap to produce but lesser performing plastic air barrel in the S600.

The other change in the S600's internal evolution was the perceived desire to use a balance chamber that also removed the spring pressure from the balance chamber and poppet when the reg was depressurized. As I recall this was primarily in response to competitors who hyped this capability. This was however one of those ideas that created more complexity and problems than it solved. At a minimum, it leaves the second stage orifice open to dust, insects, moisture, etc, if the reg is poorly stored. Worse, if the reg is rinsed or soaked when de-pressurized it allows water to enter even if the purge is not depressed. Those ills far over shadowed any benefit to seat life that may result from removing the already low spring pressure in this balanced design.

It's an example of why it's usually not a good idea to let the marketing folks tell the engineering department what to do, and it's a 'feature' that won't be missed on the S600.

It's worth noting that all the bits and pieces are interchangeable, and with the option to 'upgrade' a second stage (including the older G500), or with older parts being replaced with newer ones in the repair process over the last 17 years the design has been around, you're going to see a lot of franken S600s. You're also going to see new purge covers on old S600s and maybe even a G500 or two, so you really can't tell exactly what you have until you open it up.
 
Incredible post DA! Just the information I was hoping for and more. Glad to have people like you who have such deep knowledge and willing to share it.

I have two follow up questions here:

1. One version of the plastic barrel has a tab sticking while another does not. Do you know what the function of that tab might be?
2. One version of the balance chamber does require a pneumatic adjustment tool while another does not. Which one is used in the latest version of the S600?

And two comments:

1. I agree that the mechanism introduced by Atomic which disengages the orifice when the reg is depressurized only marginally improves the life of the seat while introducing other issues. At least, their approach is quite simple while ScubaPro's attempt to do the same seems overly complicated. All in all, I find Atomic regs to be very pleasant to work with. The rinsing consideration is minor issue for me personally since I don't soak regs that are not pressurized. They do hiss at very low pressures (< 6 bar or so), but nobody should be breathing his cylinders down to such pressures under most circumstances.
2. Thank you for suggesting G250. I actually own a couple of these, as well as R109s and love them. I don't need convincing in the superiority of their simpler mechanics. I am just interested in adding an S600 as a collection/toy specimen to play with. I think it will be fun to build an S600 with the best possible characteristics for this family of regs. I don't intent it to be replacing any G250 reg.
 
The tab probably makes it "fool proof" on which way to put the barrel back in, since it is keyed and presumably only fits one way.
 
DA yes I still believe the d400 was one of the best regs SP ever made still have 4 of them , have taken them down over 200 feet in bikini ..still love them buy the kits when ever I can ...and still have my Italian g500..........steve
 
DA yes I still believe the d400 was one of the best regs SP ever made still have 4 of them , have taken them down over 200 feet in bikini ..still love them buy the kits when ever I can ...and still have my Italian g500..........steve
Since I start diving 80 have been using only the D series from the Pilot to the D400 trying all others, still use them exclusively and service it
 
Since I bought a used S600 which I think is the 2001 model for 100$ would I have any trouble with it after I get it serviced? It looked like it had a few scratches but it was serviced from the previous owner.
 
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