CO Death Myth

[Thalassamania]

I don't know about Mexico, or for that matter any jurisdiction except California, where autopsy reports are public record and anyone can obtain them.

 

[old gaffer]

You know that you can have them contact me with any questions at all and I will give them references of other students we have certified here in the past that continue to dive with us year after year as well as recent students. They need to not give so much credence to ONE SINGLE false report and they need to understand the entirety of that INCIDENT. It was a poorly conceived, poorly planned, poorly executed dive - that should never have happened to begin with - we all know that by now.

Hi Christie! I may have them give you a call if I cant convince them. And I know about your return customers being one myself diving with BlueXTsea over the past two years.

Tom

 

[mstevens]

I don't know about Mexico, or for that matter any jurisdiction except California, where autopsy reports are public record and anyone can obtain them.

I would be absolutely astonished if that were correct.

Are you sure you're not confusing autopsy reports with medical examiners' reports? The latter typically would include information from an autopsy and could easily become part of the public record if it is submitted as part of a public legal proceeding. Lots of autopsies are done privately - at one point in my training over half of all deaths in our large training hospital were autopsied, but only a small fraction of those were ME cases. There's no way those records should be public, just as with any other medical procedure or test.

If in fact California law automatically entitles me to trot down to the local hospital and demand to read everybody's autopsy report, then I'm simply horrified.

 

[WSOPFAN]

I actually have no information about what might be true here. Neither do you.

Really? Here are some facts for you:
Google Translate

that article states:

The coroner of the State Attorney's Office (PGJE), Juan Carlos Gongora Ake, said the causes of death of the tourist Brendan Nappi, 35-year-old electrical engineer, a native of St. Louis, Missouri, was due to suffocation and carbon monoxide poisoning, that caused his skin was pink.

It is absolutely true that this newspaper, Not Por Esto mind you, posted this article.
Now the OP insinuates that not only Por Esto's reporting is laughable but other's as well. The OP has yet to provide ANY factual evidence to prove that this article is false in any way period.

This has also been posted by members of the diver's team:

The coroner did test for carboxyhemoglobin. Not sure what else to say about that.

There's only one way to get elevated carboyxhemoglobin levels high enough to be lethal and have the coroner deem the cause of death carbon monoxide poisoning.

An autopsy was performed and the team was informed by local officials that the cause of death was carbon monoxide poisoning. Both Brandon’s rebreather and one other teammate’s rebreater were found to be in working order.

The OP stated

I reported that there NEVER was a test for Carboxyhemoglobin.

The statements above were posted in a thread in A&I that is TRUE and I happen to believe them until proven otherwise.
The OP says there never was a test which I would assume was of any kind. The OP has yet to prove what he is claiming is true. Let me repeat that......He has YET to prove no test took place. I my opinion his credibility is quickly diminished with every passing minute.

The OP suggests that Mexican newspapers don't always post the truth. I AGREE, however he has yet to show that in this particular case any news was false.

This is NOT a discussion of who is a better dive shop, or who takes you to better reefs, or who has better dive guides or faster boats. This is a discussion involving a deceased diver...........to start a thread suggesting no test was done and the coroner's office there is basically a joke and that newspapers often fudge the truth without proving any of that as it pertains to this case is despicable IMO. You are all free to conclude what you wish.

 

[Thalassamania]

I would be absolutely astonished if that were correct.

Are you sure you're not confusing autopsy reports with medical examiners' reports? The latter typically would include information from an autopsy and could easily become part of the public record if it is submitted as part of a public legal proceeding. Lots of autopsies are done privately - at one point in my training over half of all deaths in our large training hospital were autopsied, but only a small fraction of those were ME cases. There's no way those records should be public, just as with any other medical procedure or test.

If in fact California law automatically entitles me to trot down to the local hospital and demand to read everybody's autopsy report, then I'm simply horrified.

I believe that it does, at least in California.

And in Florida. Here is an excerpt from Florida :

Autopsy reports made pursuant to law are public records which must be made available for public inspection and examination unless exempted by special act. If not exempted from disclosure by special act, an autopsy report may be kept confidential only to the extent necessary to ensure that a criminal investigation would not be significantly impeded and enable violators of the criminal laws to escape detection and apprehension. Documents or records made confidential by statute do not lose such status upon receipt by the medical examiner.

In sum, autopsy reports made pursuant to law are public records which must be made available for public inspection and examination unless exempted by special act. If not exempted from disclosure by special act, an autopsy report may be kept confidential only to the extent necessary to ensure that a criminal investigation would not be significantly impeded and enable violators of the criminal laws to escape detection and apprehension. Documents or records made confidential by statute do not lose such status upon receipt by the medical examiner. See, e.g., ss. 458.16, 794.03, and 827.07(7), F. S. To the extent AGO 068-27 is in conflict with this opinion, it is hereby receded from.

Prepared by:

Sharyn L. Smith
Assistant Attorney General

Really? Here are some facts for you:
Google Translate

that article states:



It is absolutely true that this newspaper, Not Por Esto mind you, posted this article.
Now the OP insinuates that not only Por Esto's reporting is laughable but other's as well. The OP has yet to provide ANY factual evidence to prove that this article is false in any way period.

This has also been posted by members of the diver's team:





The OP stated


The statements above were posted in a thread in A&I that is TRUE and I happen to believe them until proven otherwise.
The OP says there never was a test which I would assume was of any kind. The OP has yet to prove what he is claiming is true. Let me repeat that......He has YET to prove no test took place. I my opinion his credibility is quickly diminished with every passing minute.

The OP suggests that Mexican newspapers don't always post the truth. I AGREE, however he has yet to show that in this particular case any news was false.

This is NOT a discussion of who is a better dive shop, or who takes you to better reefs, or who has better dive guides or faster boats. This is a discussion involving a deceased diver...........to start a thread suggesting no test was done and the coroner's office there is basically a joke and that newspapers often fudge the truth without proving any of that as it pertains to this case is despicable IMO. You are all free to conclude what you wish.

There is reason to disbelieve the assertion that a definitive CO test was performed. Documentation of the test and how it was done is a reasonable request.

 

[cruiser]

My goodness, I certainly hope not!

An autopsy report is someone's personal, private medical information.

An autopsy is actually public information, with few exceptions. It can be had for a fee which varies from area to area.

ADDITION: I meant to say in the US. Can't weigh-in on the availability of public records elsewhere.

 

[Christi]

By all means, if a local newspaper reported it, then it MUST be true and it MUST hold more credibility than a respected professional and other respected medical professionals on the island.

Here's a FACT, local reporters do NO fact checking - they take the first story they hear and print it without verifying any information - I have that first hand from a friend that is a freelance journalist for both Por Esto and the others. They are gossip rags and all want to be the first to report a story whether they have spoken to actual parties involved or not. Furthermore, I am told by management of the beach club where the cenote is located, that there was not one reporter on the scene when Brenden's body was recovered and that the photos which were in Por Esto could ONLY have been given to them by the police or the paramedics - they were disgusted by this and are probably correct that the photos of his body were most likely SOLD to Por Esto.

So yeh, let's give the local papers more credibility than anything. After all, if it's on the internet or in the paper, it MUST be true whether they have "proven" their case or not.

 

[DandyDon]

An autopsy is actually public information, with few exceptions. It can be had for a fee which varies from area to area.

I just have to doubt that obtaining official results from Cozumel, and translating to everyone's satisfaction, would be feasible.

Like I said, if I die in another country and my body is found without risk to others, get an autopsy done when I get home. My trip insurance will cover transporting the remains.

Then post my results if diving related, and learn from my last screw up if applicable.

 

[WSOPFAN]

By all means, if a local newspaper reported it, then it MUST be true and it MUST hold more credibility than a respected professional and other respected medical professionals on the island.

Here's a FACT, local reporters do NO fact checking - they take the first story they hear and print it without verifying any information - I have that first hand from a friend that is a freelance journalist for both Por Esto and the others. They are gossip rags and all want to be the first to report a story whether they have spoken to actual parties involved or not. Furthermore, I am told by management of the beach club where the cenote is located, that there was not one reporter on the scene when Brenden's body was recovered and that the photos which were in Por Esto could ONLY have been given to them by the police or the paramedics - they were disgusted by this and are probably correct that the photos of his body were most likely SOLD to Por Esto.

So yeh, let's give the local papers more credibility than anything. After all, if it's on the internet or in the paper, it MUST be true whether they have "proven" their case or not.

If you click on the link from post #64 above I typed you will see that article is dated:

Wednesday, October 19, 2011 00:00

Now if you look in the A&I thread related to the deceased cave diver you will find in post#22 it is dated:

October 18th, 2011,

And also states in part:

An autopsy was performed and the team was informed by local officials that the cause of death was carbon monoxide poisoning.

Therefore his dive team posted sometime on Oct 18 at cavediver.net then it was re-posted here. They were informed prior to that article being released the very same information as posted in that article.
So to answer your question NO the local paper is not getting more credibility than anything else. It was merely posted as a reference point to show that the news story and the dive team accounts are exactly the same. Forget about the news article.......they were told a test was done and as a result of that test a conclusion was made as to a cause of death. Now unless you have factual evidence to suggest otherwise, stop trampling on a fellow divers grave.

 

[annlaur]

Really? Here are some facts for you:
Google Translate

that article states:
"The coroner of the State Attorney's Office (PGJE), Juan Carlos Gongora Ake, said the causes of death of the tourist Brendan Nappi, 35-year-old electrical engineer, a native of St. Louis, Missouri, was due to suffocation and carbon monoxide poisoning, that caused his skin was pink."

Funny how you didn't quote the rest of the article:
"De acuerdo con las declaraciones de sus amigos, sólo se percataron que su compañero empezó a pedir auxilio al ver que le faltaba oxígeno, acto seguido procedieron a apoyarlo pero fue en vano, ya que estaban a varios metros de profundidad cuando pasó el accidente.
Aun cuando los cuatro son profesionales en buceo y cuentan con la certificación requerida para practicarlo en cuevas, cenotes y cavernas, se continúa la investigación de los hechos, ya que el equipo con el que practicaban el buceo era propiedad de ellos. […]"

Here's the translation:

"According to his [the deceased's] friends' statements, they only realized their companion had started to ask for help when they saw that he was missing oxygen. After which they started to help him but in vain, since they were at a depth of several meters when the accident occurred.
Even though the four of them are dive professionals and have the required certification to practice it in caves, cenotes and caverns, the investigation of the facts continues, since the equipment they were diving with was theirs".

So the other divers realized their friend was "missing oxygen" (did they test his tank with a Nitrox analizer while underwater?).
They couldn't help him because they were several meters deep (if only all scuba related accidents happened at the surface&#8230.
And the investigation continues, even though the coroner knows the cause of death (suffocation AND CO poisoning) and even though the divers are cave certified, because they didn't rent their gear (no ironic comment on that one, it just makes absolutely no sense, and that's not a translation issue).

No doubt we have a Pulitzer prize winner here.

Please don't use the word "fact" when quoting such a poorly written newspaper report.