'Clinically dead' rebreather diver dragged from quarry - and then revived

[Rred]

The good sam laws vary. Usually, when the case gets into court the court will ask "Were you trained to do that?" and if you answer "Well no, that's not the way I was taught to do it, but I THINK I KNOW BETTER..." you've just screwed yourself.

If you've had formal certification, you DO NOT exceed what you've been taught. Even if it is wrong. Or else you open a whole big can of worms, that the courts often don't want to hear about. That's just the way it is.

In trauma first aid, tourniquets used to be normal. Then for maybe 30? 40? years the rule became "Never apply a tourniquet, it could result in loss of a limb." Well...After Vietnam and the Gulf incursions, the Army, who make a serious point about tracking casualties and which treatments save the most lives, very extensively documented that tourniquets save lives. You may lose that limb--but it beats bleeding out and dying, the way they score things.

And finally about four years ago with domestic terrorism becoming so rampant, the national standards changed back. The "Stop the Bleed" campaign now teaches tourniquets, and distributes them as standard equipment. (STB kits are often stocked where defibrillator kits are.) Times change, wheels turn.

But for good samaritans, if you've had *no* training, you will be held to a different standard than someone who has had some training--and violates it. Same thing for paramedics, if you exceed or violate the training, you become liable.

 

[RockiesFan]

I am not going to enter a pissing contest with you. I am just saying a person trained in the old cpr methods that happened to have a breathing mask is not likely going to be sued for using it in good faith even if that cert has long since lapsed. But since you insist on having the last word you are more than welcome to it

 

[Jack Hammer]

Rebreathers take a bit more effort to breath. You really need to always be aware of what its doing. The guy was 71 years old. I'd be considering those factors before jumping to the rebreathers are death machines conclusion.

 

[lv2dive]

In my NSVHO, the fact that rebreathers seem to be more dangerous than open circuit is less about CCRs actually *being* more dangerous, and more about them *seeming* more dangerous.

The differences (again, my opinion) boil down to three general areas. I will acknowledge that one of these areas speaks to a difference that is actual rather than perceived, so I highlighted it first:
A. Frankly, CCRs are more complicated than OC and rebreather operators do have to pay more attention or they have the potential to screw up - and there is less room for error on a CCR than OC (mistakes can be deadly on CCR or OC, but there is more potential to make mistakes on a CCR).
Now, on to the other two "buckets" that are differences but that I feel contribute unfairly to CCRs being perceived as unsafe:
B. The average age of the CCR diver is likely decades older than the average age of the OC diver. *As a general rule,* with increased age comes decreased fitness. All other things being equal - for every 100 CCR dives and 100 OC dives, it's likely one would see a higher prevalence of medical issues on the CCR dives. Through no fault of the CCR!
C. A significant portion of people who buy CCRs do so bc they want to do deeper/longer dives - in other words, dives with more inherent risk to start with. (I know my then-buddy and I started diving rebreathers bc the amount of gas to support a three-day weekend at Eagles Nest/Diepolder was crazy - see the comparison below). The point is, in general, the nature of dives done on CCR is likely to be more complicated/risky - but that is the dive itself, not the fact that it's a CCR dive.

6 sets of 104s vs 2 CCRs, 2 sets of SM bailout
4 AL80s O2, 2 AL40s O2 vs 2 AL80s O2
4 AL80s 50%, 2 AL40s 50% vs 2 AL80s 50%
4 AL80s 32% vs -- 1 AL80 21/35
4 AL80s 18/45 vs 2 AL80s 18/45
4 AL80s 15/55 vs 2 AL80s 15/55
Or something like that....

Hope this makes sense. Been meaning to post something like this -but more well-written - for some time.

 

[Blasto]

A. Frankly, CCRs are more complicated than OC and rebreather operators do have to pay more attention or they have the potential to screw up - and there is less room for error on a CCR than OC (mistakes can be deadly on CCR or OC, but there is more potential to make mistakes on a CCR).

Saying "can be deadly" can be misleading without citing the probabilities of "can". Consider the failure modes and their effects.

Most OC mistakes just stop the air supply, which is extremely obvious and gives a full breath of warning to switch the reg or ascend (in rec). You have to go out of your way to hurt yourself with an OC unit. Even the gas switch can be mistimed with little risk. Millions of OC divers make mistakes all the time, but the fatality rate of these mistakes is less than one in a million.

Common CCR failure modes are deadly. Too little oxygen - hypoxia - death. Too much oxygen - oxtox - possible death. Flooded unit - toxic air and loss of buoyancy. Poor breathing technique - hypercapnia (possible but hard to achieve on OC as well). And their failures can come both from diver mistakes and common unit malfunction.

B.
C.

D. Rebreather divers are on the average much more aware of what they're doing, more experienced, and much better trained. It seems like a miracle how many of the vacation divers even stay alive - yet they do. So you see, it cuts both ways.

To dive a rebreather without dying, everything needs to go right. To dive OC without dying, it's enough for not everything to go wrong.

 

[lv2dive]

I dive a rebreather - the main point I was trying to make (which I obviously did not make) - is that CCRs are often seen as more deadly than OC, yet there are often other factors contributing to the deaths.

Regarding point A - I am sure I didn't word it as well as I could have. At any rate, my main point is that I do think a CCR diver has to pay attention or the rebreather can bite them in the behind with deadly results - much more so than on OC. I don't think there is really much to disagree with that point! I think your points about failure modes speaks to what I was trying to get at.

Saying "can be deadly" can be misleading without citing the probabilities of "can". Consider the failure modes and their effects.

Most OC mistakes just stop the air supply, which is extremely obvious and gives a full breath of warning to switch the reg or ascend (in rec). You have to go out of your way to hurt yourself with an OC unit. Even the gas switch can be mistimed with little risk. Millions of OC divers make mistakes all the time, but the fatality rate of these mistakes is less than one in a million.

Common CCR failure modes are deadly. Too little oxygen - hypoxia - death. Too much oxygen - oxtox - possible death. Flooded unit - toxic air and loss of buoyancy. Poor breathing technique - hypercapnia (possible but hard to achieve on OC as well). And their failures can come both from diver mistakes and common unit malfunction.



D. Rebreather divers are on the average much more aware of what they're doing, more experienced, and much better trained. It seems like a miracle how many of the vacation divers even stay alive - yet they do. So you see, it cuts both ways.

To dive a rebreather without dying, everything needs to go right. To dive OC without dying, it's enough for not everything to go wrong.

 

[Diving Dubai]

If the responders were volunteers and certified in the past two years (the usual recertification requirement) under the new standards for the general public, they actually would not be allowed to perform CPR breathing at all--it would be exceeding their new training standard, and making them personally liable.

FWIW This was in the UK - thankfully
Good Samaritan law prevails

Your country might be different

 

[Allison Finch]

I watched a rebreather diver buddy breathed to the surface when his equip failed. Good thing another diver was close by.

 

[DandyDon]

It was found out some year ago that the chest compressions alone force enough blood circulation to keep tissues oxygenated, including the brain.

Except for small children or drowning victims. Your statement is really too general, borderline risky.

 

[Blasto]

Regarding point A - I am sure I didn't word it as well as I could have. At any rate, my main point is that I do think a CCR diver has to pay attention or the rebreather can bite them in the behind with deadly results - much more so than on OC. I don't think there is really much to disagree with that point! I think your points about failure modes speaks to what I was trying to get at.

Yes, I'm not in any way against rebreathers! My main point is that OC really is a safer tool, like a blunt tip knife vs a stiletto.

Or how a rifle is inherently safer than a grenade - but there are situations when tossing a grenade is safer than going in with a rifle. When the environment's risks outweigh the risk of using a tool that's good at mitigating them, using the more dangerous tool can be safer. A CCR is more risk in open water, but a major margin of safety for cave expeditions.