Cleaning Agents? SimpleGreen at depth?

[DocVikingo]

[*]Inhalation: No adverse effects expected under typical use conditions. Adequate ventilation should be present when using Simple GreenŽ® over a prolonged period of time.

Thank you, reefraff.

To the best of my admittedly limited knowledge, 2-butoxyethanol is the only actually toxic chemical in Simple Green at anything representing amounts to which one could reasonably expose themselves.

As was mentioned by the biochemist, people exposed to high levels of this chemical for several hours have reported nose and eye irritation, headaches, vomiting and a metallic taste in their mouths.

This product has been around >30-years and I could locate no credible reports of morbidity or mortality. While this doesn't mean such reports/research don't exist, or that an individual might not have an idiosyncratic adverse reaction to it, it does mean it's rather unlikely.

But, I defer to those more expert than I.

Regards,

DocVikingo

 

[spoolin01]

The amount of vapors in Simple Green is determined by the temperature. Four ATA would not chanage this.

It took a lot of p-chem review to re-learn this truth about liquid-vapor equilibria. But in thinking more about this, I'm going to venture that at least in some such conceivable cases - as the contaminant is evaporating out of the tank but not yet completely gone - this is the wrong analysis. It works where there's sufficient contaminant in the tank prior to fill for the vapor and liquid to be in equilibrium (or at least still capable of forming a two-phase equilibrium if the tank is suddenly capped). If that condition isn't met the vapor will act more like a residual ideal gas and get diluted by the amount of added breathing gas, so that the dose per breath will decrease with increased fill pressure. At the moment this seems to make sense, but...?

 

[spoolin01]

Hmmm, back to this again. Going back to the original question of how toxic Simple Green vapors might be at 4 atm, the dose per breath should be an inverse function of fill pressure, even if there's liquid-vapor equilibrium, it's the total dose if you breathe the entire tank down, as the OP did, that is independent of total pressure.

 

[DandyDon]

This past weekend I had the misfortune to get some bad NITROX from a local shop. I had just picked them up from inspection..loaded in the car and went diving. Dove 3 dives which resulted in a progressively horrendous headache. Sitting out the 4th dive I began to feel better. This is...this happened last year too right after I had my tanks serviced. Any clue how toxic is SimpleGreen, at say 4atm, if residual left in tanks? BTW..getting the mix tested by a third party.

Hi Susie,

Did you learn any more...?

 

[paddler3d]

SkubaGirl, could it be a simple case of dehydration? Headache are my number one clue, aside from the dark urine, that dehydration is setting in. Each dive you got worse, after you had sucked down another bottle of dry air and O2.

Was anyone else diving air from the same source?

Like someone mentioned above, if you hear hoofs, think horses and not zebras.

 

[The Chairman]

Having used Simple Green myself, I know that I would never fill a tank with even a hint of liquid in it! Ergo, trying to determine the vapor pressure of a possible residue which is ostensibly dry seems a fool's errand.

I would be more interested in the presence or absence of CO. I had a mysterious bad tank at very minor depths (25 FSW) and I was throwing up underwater due to it. It was a 130cf tank and I actually thought I was getting sick. So sick, that I had decided to pass on the second dive. But as time passed, I felt far better and jumped back in to look for more Meg Teeth.

When I started to throw up with each breath, it suddenly dawned on me that my air was foul and I aborted the dive. In retrospect, I am not sure it was denial as much as it was the confusion brought on by the headache that prevented me from making the connection earlier. The problem with confusion is that it can mask itself, often rendering the victim unable to make critical decisions especially under any duress. You become your own worst enemy as your critical thinking and decision making skills become bovine in nature. You don't even realize that you have become mentally incapacitated in much the same way as nitrogen narcosis clouds your thinking.

I know for certain the following facts:

My tanks were O₂ Clean per protocols.
I had lent my tanks to a friend.
They were last filled via the partial pressure method with %32 NitrOx.

I can only assume that somehow my friend had contaminated my tanks with an oil vapor. While an oil may be "food grade", that does not stop it from partially combusting with the high level and pressure of O₂ used in Partial Pressure Blending.

Clean tanks can be contaminated in various ways.

• Filled by a dirty system/compressor.
• Use of the wrong grease on the tank o-ring during inspection.
• NOT rebuilding the valve during the O₂ cleaning process.
• Use of the wrong grease when rebuilding the valve.

These are all obvious, and I am sure that there are less obvious ways to accomplish the same task. Most NitrOx classes seem to focus on the fire hazards of using unclean tanks and valves and are replete with anecdotes about explosions and such. The more common issue is CO poisoning and I wish this was better reflected in our training materials.

From the CDC on Carbon Monoxide Poisoning:

What are the symptoms of CO poisoning?
The most common symptoms of CO poisoning are headache, dizziness, weakness, nausea, vomiting, chest pain, and confusion. High levels of CO inhalation can cause loss of consciousness and death. Unless suspected, CO poisoning can be difficult to diagnose because the symptoms mimic other illnesses. People who are sleeping or intoxicated can die from CO poisoning before ever experiencing symptoms.

 

[DandyDon]

I would be more interested in the presence or absence of CO. I had a mysterious bad tank at very minor depths (25 FSW) and I was throwing up underwater due to it. It was a 130cf tank and I actually thought I was getting sick. So sick, that I had decided to pass on the second dive. But as time passed, I felt far better and jumped back in to look for more Meg Teeth.

When I started to throw up with each breath, it suddenly dawned on me that my air was foul and I aborted the dive. In retrospect, I am not sure it was denial as much as it was the confusion brought on by the headache that prevented me from making the connection earlier. The problem with confusion is that it can mask itself, often rendering the victim unable to make critical decisions especially under any duress. You become your own worst enemy as your critical thinking and decision making skills become bovine in nature. You don't even realize that you have become mentally incapacitated in much the same way as nitrogen narcosis clouds your thinking.

I know for certain the following facts:

My tanks were O₂ Clean per protocols.
I had lent my tanks to a friend.
They were last filled via the partial pressure method with %32 NitrOx.

I can only assume that somehow my friend had contaminated my tanks with an oil vapor. While an oil may be "food grade", that does not stop it from partially combusting with the high level and pressure of O₂ used in Partial Pressure Blending.

Clean tanks can be contaminated in various ways.

• Filled by a dirty system/compressor.
• Use of the wrong grease on the tank o-ring during inspection.
• NOT rebuilding the valve during the O₂ cleaning process.
• Use of the wrong grease when rebuilding the valve.

These are all obvious, and I am sure that there are less obvious ways to accomplish the same task. Most NitrOx classes seem to focus on the fire hazards of using unclean tanks and valves and are replete with anecdotes about explosions and such. The more common issue is CO poisoning and I wish this was better reflected in our training materials.

Wow, when was this Pete? Good thing you didn't take that tank to 100 ft as CO becomes increasingly toxic at depth, then hits harder as you ascend.

I test all tanks for CO, and would reject any with a reading that shows up on an analyzer that starts at 5%. One of the few available that does: Pocket CO - Miniature Carbon Monoxide Detector and Dosimeter

 

[The Chairman]

It happened right at a year ago, Don while I was diving off of Venice Beach Florida looking for Megalodon teeth. The tank had been at ITK (Invade the Keys) and I had originally thought the last shop to fill it to be responsible. It then came out that it had been filled at several different places while absent from me and I could see a fine black residue on the walls of the tank during inspection. A filter rupture would have contaminated more than just these two tanks, so it became apparent that it was due to a previous dirty (WAY DIRTY) fill from a non-O₂ safe environment. Needless to say, both the tank and valve were cleaned and O₂ compatible grease was used on all of the o-rings and moving parts within the valve.

I do remember seeing a CO meter at DEMA last year, and I think you might be on to something. That does seem to be about the cheapest one on the market, but I am more concerned with accuracy and usability. I think I will do some research here before I buy.

 

[krawdady]

So what happened to the OP? I am on pins and needles waiting for the results of the test she had done. That aside, this has been an informative thread.