class for class sake

[MikeFerrara]

I was in FL recently and did a few "trust-me" dives with a DM very familiar with Devil's Den, Blue Grotto and a couple of other springs in central FL. All involved some overhead. All were classified as only requiring OW or AOW.

Who classified them as only requireing OW or AOW? The owner who is selling access maybe? Using the definitions commonly accepted by the cave training agencies, there really is no such thing as an OW diver safe overhead environment.

 

[PerroneFord]

Mike, I agree. But that is how the owners bill them, right or wrong. I can say that I have been in Ginnie Ballroom long before I had a cavern card. Morrison cavern as well which is most CERTAINLY not OW or AOW safe.

However, there are a number of "cave agency" decisions I don't agree with either. I think the idea of being able to take cavern or intro without doubles is absolutely silly. But that's not my call either. I know I was in doubles when I started my overhead training, and I encourage others to do the same.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I was in FL recently and did a few "trust-me" dives with a DM very familiar with Devil's Den, Blue Grotto and a couple of other springs in central FL. All involved some overhead. All were classified as only requiring OW or AOW. I had some apprehension to the dives because of the overheads and swim-throughs, but thought things through, explained my feelings to the DM and felt more comfortable as the days went on.

Probably not the best idea. These caverns are classified OW/AOW safe by the owners, not the general population. Any overhead environment requires special skills. OW divers have died in caverns classifed as "OW/AOW safe".

My question is, I was thinking about, at least, taking cave training for the information, not neccessarily wanting to do cave diving. I don't think I would ever consider going into a cave. Same for wrecks. I quess I just want the information/training for information sake. I thought it might make me a little better diver.
When I said that to another diver (who has several more years of experience than I), he though I was just going to waste my money and time. If I didn't do cave diving, I would forget everything within a few months.

Was he just trying to be macho or was he correct?

Take a cavern course. It's the foundation of cave diving. You'll spend about a day in a classroom and a day diving during the course. In the classroom, you'll learn about cave formations, different types of caves, caverns, entrances, etc. You'll also spend some time doing land line drills. In the water, you'll apply those line drills, learn different finning techniques, safety drills, no mask drills, communication techniques, etc. Beyond the cavern course, you'll just be advancing those skills with things you probably won't need if you don't plan on diving caves.

Everything you learn in cavern can be applied and used on any dive anytime. You won't lose the information or skill if you don't make it into a cavern every week. I live in Arizona and only make it to cave country 3 times a year. But I constantly practice my cave diving techniques in the local lakes. That way I don't lose the skills I learned. In fact, this week I'm heading to the lake to practice line and bottle drop drills. You don't need to be in an overhead to practice overhead techniques.

If you'd like some basic information on caves, read this. It's about dry caves, but a lot of it applies to underwater caves. Also, don't be surprised if after your cavern class you're already scheduling your basic cave class...

 

[Bobby]

Actually there are cavern sites in NFL that the cave agencies have looked at and deemed safe for O/W divers with special conditions. Most of the sites require the O/W diver to watch a video and the releases have added wording to warn the divers of special procedures they must fallow for the diving conditions.

As for training I will throw in my O2 and say get the extra training it won't hurt and could do a lot for your diving over all. Another option to think about is to take a Technical Fundamentals class, NAUI, TDI & GUE offer them. Other agencies may as well but I don't know all the agencies courses. A Fundamentals class will give you some basic skills to work on that if put into practice will make the cavern class much more enjoyable and allow you to get more from future classes.

Bobby

 

[Dive-aholic]

Actually there are cavern sites in NFL that the cave agencies have looked at and deemed safe for O/W divers with special conditions. Most of the sites require the O/W diver to watch a video and the releases have added wording to warn the divers of special procedures they must fallow for the diving conditions.

Bobby

Interesting. Even after the deaths. One death in particular wouldn't have occurred if it weren't for the overhead being there.

 

[D_B]

I will chime in on this, even though I have little experience in general, and none in caverns ..
If your interests/curiosity push you in a direction, and you want to know more about it, why not? ... why would it ever be a waste of money to further your knowledge?

 

[Bobby]

Interesting. Even after the deaths. One death in particular wouldn't have occurred if it weren't for the overhead being there.

I may be wrong but I am Assuming that you are talking about the incedent in Kings Cavern a few years ago. Though you are correct it was in an over head it does not apply to the statement. Kings Cavern is not an approved or accepted O/W site, though O/W divers are taken into it on a regular basis. That particular incident did not inolve local guides and the operator only provided a Captain to run the boat, they used a non local guide. I am not placing blame or implying that one is better than the other. What I am saying is that in the area there are sites that are considered acceptable for O/W divers and I am not familiar with incedents relating to an O/W diver in an over head at the acceptted sites.

There are many practices that I personally do not agree with in NFL with regards to O/W divers and over heads but that is not the situation at hand. We could start an entire different thread on that topic that would have a lot more inensity than this topic.

Bobby

 

[jeandiver]

Mike, I agree. But that is how the owners bill them, right or wrong. I can say that I have been in Ginnie Ballroom long before I had a cavern card. Morrison cavern as well which is most CERTAINLY not OW or AOW safe.

However, there are a number of "cave agency" decisions I don't agree with either. I think the idea of being able to take cavern or intro without doubles is absolutely silly. But that's not my call either. I know I was in doubles when I started my overhead training, and I encourage others to do the same.

Er...
You most CERTAINLY CAN do doubles for Cavern and Intro with those "Cave Agency"s. I did.
Gads.
You know , dive 1/6's ...

I know these other places (Devil's Den , Blue Grotto , Paradise , and Ginnie) because of being privately owned , they can set their own rules for access (please correct me if I am wrong here). The state limits lights to Cave(rn) trained divers at their sites if OW diving is allowed but ... the recent tragedy at Manatee (Catfish Hotel) comes to mind. It all comes down to the most important tool a diver has ... Their brain!

You can only police people so far (me thinks). We have had 3 incidents ALREADY this year in Overhead environments in FL. I hope that's ALL we have. Very sad , we didn't have ANY last year. (sigh)

I was on a guided dive in Catfish hotel before I was cavern trained and got quite a scare from the Siphon even though I wasn't even close to it. Taught me a lesson BIG TIME!!!

Jean

 

[Dive-aholic]

I may be wrong but I am Assuming that you are talking about the incedent in Kings Cavern a few years ago. Though you are correct it was in an over head it does not apply to the statement. Kings Cavern is not an approved or accepted O/W site, though O/W divers are taken into it on a regular basis. That particular incident did not inolve local guides and the operator only provided a Captain to run the boat, they used a non local guide. I am not placing blame or implying that one is better than the other. What I am saying is that in the area there are sites that are considered acceptable for O/W divers and I am not familiar with incedents relating to an O/W diver in an over head at the acceptted sites.

There are many practices that I personally do not agree with in NFL with regards to O/W divers and over heads but that is not the situation at hand. We could start an entire different thread on that topic that would have a lot more inensity than this topic.

Bobby

I'm referring to a death in Ginnie Ballroom several years back. I don't know many details, but I heard about it from a reliable source.

 

[PerroneFord]

Please note,

I did not say you COULDN'T do it in doubles. I said you didn't HAVE to do it in doubles.
In other words, I feel that you should be in doubles to pursue overhead training. And yes, I've read the arguments on both sides from Mount and Exley as well as Larry G and others. All well and good, but you won't catch me looking at the reaper sign with a single on my back.

-P

Er...
You most CERTAINLY CAN do doubles for Cavern and Intro with those "Cave Agency"s. I did.
Gads.
You know , dive 1/6's ...