Chino prison commercial diver training program

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When the prisons are full, they are full. You don't save $40K+ per year, you just have a different inmate serve a greater percentage of their sentence (vs. early release).

.

Actually, when the prisons are full, the new inmates sleep on the floor; doubling, tripling even quadrupling up in a cell. Say what you will, the program works. The program saves money. The program has inmates working and not going back to jail. Hard to argue with that, but some people will try anyway.
 
It's also hard to argue that it's working by giving criminals expensive, coveted training for free and having working, law abiding citizens foot the bill for their new professional credentials. That the criminals will pay income taxes on future income doesn't begin to compare to paying for the training yourself and then paying income taxes on your future earnings anyway.

So, why not keep the program and divide the actual cost of running it amongst its graduates? They can pay their taxes like everyone else, and they can pay for their training to boot. Second chances usually come with strings attached, and rightly so -- you chose to :censored: up the first time around.
 
I don't have to argue whether it's working or not. There's simple evidence for 20+ years that it's working. LOL.

--edit
By the way, do you have any idea what my income tax was my first year out of dive school? About 40k. Hmm, roughly what tuition costs.

But who cares. They don't go back to jail. They have jobs. They have pride. They are successful, 93 percent of them anyway. That's good enough for me. Besides, it's not my tax dollars. It's not my state, and they are no longer my competition.

I'm out.
 
I never disputed whether it worked, and you never addressed my point about an extra assessment against their future earnings being a fair way of handling the issue.

Yeah, you're out.
 
I'm familiar with Leonard Greenstone's excellent work in this area. He was a genuine man that will be sorely missed by his family and community. May he rest in peace.

Notwithstanding his efforts, I believe it important to critically review the practice of commercial diver training for convicted felons:

- I do not believe society owes anyone (including a non-felon) a job. Every individual is responsible for paying for his/her own education (or working hard to qualify for a scholarship).

- There are people out there who work hard, save their money and go to school to learn commercial diving. The same can be said for college. These people haven't committed any crimes, nor do they owe any "debt to society." How is this debt paid? Incurring more cost to the taxpayer, or simply by paying taxes??? If all they have to do is pay taxes, we too are paying-off a debt to society, which I don't think is fair and equitable to those of us that don't commit crimes...

- I too was a Navy Diver and learned my trade by serving my country (not leaching off it). This option is open to anyone who has the aptitude and desire to do so. Others prefer to stay out of the armed forces and do this on their own. As this is a free country, so be it.

- If all you had to do was to commit a crime to have a free education, perhaps there would be more people who would be sent to jail and not have to pay-off the large debt that many must incur.

- If Society decides to do it this way, wouldn't it be better to train these inmates in a field where there is a high demand? How proud do the released inmates feel when they can't get a job??? There are other ways to modify behavior. Because this has been successful doesn't mean that Society should foot the bill.

I'm sure that if inmates qualified for a degree while being institutionalized, they would be justified in being proud of themselves (as anyone would). I just don't think that Society should be training inmates (at no cost to them) to compete with others who have not committed a crime and have to pay for their education (often at an expense of their families as well). Alternatively, they could qualify for a student loan (like anyone else) and pay for the training themselves after they are released. I don't believe it positive to show criminals "all you have to do to get something for nothing, is commit a crime."
 
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Student(convict):

Throw a rock through a storefront window: Free
Get arrested: Free
Go to trial with a court appointed atty: Free
get Incarcerated: Free
get kickass job training: Free
Being proud of your accomplishments: Priceless

The rest of us:

Throw a rock through a storefront window: $$$$ for a new window
Get arrested: $$$$ to pay for the police
Go to trial with a court appointed atty: $$$$ he's not working for free
get Incarcerated: $$$$ wow this is getting expensive
get kickass job training: $$$$ holy crap, why isn't everyone doing this
Feeling warm and fuzzy inside: how much did I pay in state taxes last year?!?
 
What many of you are essentially saying is that what really matters in life is our own self interest and screw everyone else. That there is basically no importance in assisting others or showing any kind of compassion to others. God forbid someone who has made a mistake be given any break. We are of course all perfect, and thus it would not be *fair* to the perfect among us to provide a leg up to those of us who are not.

The irony here is of course that saving $47K per year per rehabilitated inmate over the course of even a short 25 year working career is a savings to the tax payer of nearly 1.2 million - not counting the tax revenue gained from that former inmates earnings.

Americans seem to have an odd fixation on fairness when it's not fairness but rather equity that matters.

Let's extend your chosen point of view to other things involving bad judgement, mistakes, and or misfortune.

1) How about the guy who loves to ride his motor cycle without a helmet. Since he's an irresponsible ****ing moron more concerned with his own slightly enhanced enjoyment of his ride, than he is the social and taxpayer cost of a serious head injury - why should I pay for his uncovered/uninsured medical costs, TBI program, vocational rehabilitation and any long term assistive devices and accommodations. Screw him - he made a choice, he oughta live with it.

2) How about a diver who goes on a week long dive trip, stays up late, drinks like a fish, under hydrates, makes three dives a day, and then toward the end of the week gets an "unwarranted" hit (that we can pretty much agree probably is not totally "unwarranted"), or worse runs out fails to watch his/her SPG, runs out of gas and does a swimming ascent and again gets bent? Let's just agree the diver is a moron who made a mistake and is not deserving of care, since that costs you and me money, and besides we took the same trip, made the same dives and WE did not screw up and get bent, so why should we care about the diver who did?

The only difference between those views and your view on inmates are in minor details of circumstance and degree of obviousness. If you want to end rehabilitation programs or apply an absurd concept of "fairness", that's fine, but recognize it for what it is, apply it *fairly* across all domains and recognize that you are at heart no better than the inmates you want to punish.

---------- Post Merged at 08:59 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:06 AM ----------

This quote perhaps says it a lot more eloquently than I do:

"Then, as we get older, we realize that a world in which we're only thinking about ourselves and not thinking about anybody else, in which we're considering the entire project of developing ourselves as more important than our relationships to other people and making sure that everybody else has opportunity – that that's a pretty narrow vision.
"
 
What many of you are essentially saying is that what really matters in life is our own self interest and screw everyone else. That there is basically no importance in assisting others or showing any kind of compassion to others. God forbid someone who has made a mistake be given any break. We are of course all perfect, and thus it would not be *fair* to the perfect among us to provide a leg up to those of us who are not.

I certainly wouldn't say that! I do however question the idea that Society should be magnanimous by spending huge amounts of the tax-payers money to prepare someone for a position where in all likelihood, they would find it difficult to find employment in that field. I suppose I believe that it would be preferable to train them in a job that they could be easily monitored after release and not one that often requires international travel (which they can't undertake because of the restrictions placed by other countries on admittance i.e. no criminal record). I believe that its not a matter of compassion, but just applying common sense.

The only difference between those views and your view on inmates are in minor details of circumstance and degree of obviousness. If you want to end rehabilitation programs or apply an absurd concept of "fairness", that's fine, but recognize it for what it is, apply it *fairly* across all domains and recognize that you are at heart no better than the inmates you want to punish.

I agree. It should be applied "fairly across all domains." That's not just to those that perform criminal acts, but to others equally as well. I was raised to be compassionate to everyone. If a criminal makes a mistake, he should be given another chance! But what is the matter with treating them equally? Provide them with a student loan, (which they will be able to repay in the future). What advantage is there in providing free training to a particular segment of Society and at the same time expect a man with a sick wife and two kids to pay his own way? Is compassion only for those who commit criminal acts? I think not. I'm not saying to stop rehabilitation, or job training. Rather to not provide fully capable adults (solely because they have chosen to commit a crime) with special benefits that are not shared by those who choose to act responsibly.
 
What many of you are essentially saying is that what really matters in life is our own self interest and screw everyone else. That there is basically no importance in assisting others or showing any kind of compassion to others. God forbid someone who has made a mistake be given any break. We are of course all perfect, and thus it would not be *fair* to the perfect among us to provide a leg up to those of us who are not.

The irony here is of course that saving $47K per year per rehabilitated inmate over the course of even a short 25 year working career is a savings to the tax payer of nearly 1.2 million - not counting the tax revenue gained from that former inmates earnings.

Americans seem to have an odd fixation on fairness when it's not fairness but rather equity that matters.

Let's extend your chosen point of view to other things involving bad judgement, mistakes, and or misfortune.

1) How about the guy who loves to ride his motor cycle without a helmet. Since he's an irresponsible ****ing moron more concerned with his own slightly enhanced enjoyment of his ride, than he is the social and taxpayer cost of a serious head injury - why should I pay for his uncovered/uninsured medical costs, TBI program, vocational rehabilitation and any long term assistive devices and accommodations. Screw him - he made a choice, he oughta live with it.

2) How about a diver who goes on a week long dive trip, stays up late, drinks like a fish, under hydrates, makes three dives a day, and then toward the end of the week gets an "unwarranted" hit (that we can pretty much agree probably is not totally "unwarranted"), or worse runs out fails to watch his/her SPG, runs out of gas and does a swimming ascent and again gets bent? Let's just agree the diver is a moron who made a mistake and is not deserving of care, since that costs you and me money, and besides we took the same trip, made the same dives and WE did not screw up and get bent, so why should we care about the diver who did?

The only difference between those views and your view on inmates are in minor details of circumstance and degree of obviousness. If you want to end rehabilitation programs or apply an absurd concept of "fairness", that's fine, but recognize it for what it is, apply it *fairly* across all domains and recognize that you are at heart no better than the inmates you want to punish.

---------- Post Merged at 08:59 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:06 AM ----------

This quote perhaps says it a lot more eloquently than I do:

"Then, as we get older, we realize that a world in which we're only thinking about ourselves and not thinking about anybody else, in which we're considering the entire project of developing ourselves as more important than our relationships to other people and making sure that everybody else has opportunity – that that's a pretty narrow vision.
"

You know we have already read your opinion. Your defense of it and your opinion of everyone else who doesn't agree with you. Just based off of those who have participated in this thread so far you still sit with the minority. Nevertheless the resounding sound of a chihuahua comes to mind when I see your thoughts interjected randomly thru out this thread. You may sit with the child molesters, gang members, drug dealers and other convicted criminals as you see fit to preach reform and compassion like a "what would jesus do" teach shirt. That will not change the fact that i'm sure most see you as a guy standing on a bucket preaching the end of the world or some new twisted interpretation of something once said by a wise man at a phish concert. My point is, stop trying to bury everyone in your thoughts. We get it, your right and everyone else is wrong. I suggest if you feel so strongly about the program you go make a donation to it and write your letter to the state. Good luck with that.
 
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i like the idea of having them pay back for the training like a student loan...

its done all the time with law abiding citizens...

"free" education also comes at a price... in alot of countries that provide free higher level education you must give back to society by working for a local company for a specified period of time etc...

nothing is wrong with rehabilitation, but it comes at a cost and yes the rehabilitated person should at least cover some of that cost no?
 
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