Chino prison commercial diver training program

[Graeme Tolton]

In a way, this sets a very bad precident. For example, one cannot afford to get commercial diver training. This individual robs a bank and gets the training for free.

To top it all off, when released and looking for a job, the individual wont have any student loans to pay off!

 

[Zen Diving Inc.]

I simply shocked.

So,

What happen to getting a "second chance in life" ?
To become a productive citizen ?
Paying for your crimes and move on ?

Maybe with the attitude that has been shown in this thread is why the return to prison rate is so high.

So we have a program that works, but some would rather spend millions of dollars to keep someone from breaking their cycle.and become a possible model citizen and potential positive role model.

its no wonder why america has the highest % of its citizens in prisons.

Nobody said anything about not getting a second chance... You go to jail.... You get out, here is your second chance. So what, if we don't pay to train you to be a commercial diver and give you the opportunity to make six figures then when you come back some how thats our fault. Nobody wants to spend Billions (not millions) of dollars on inmates. Thats why I support tent cities and chain gangs across america. That would reduce it from billions to millions. Technical training for inmates is a joke and a waste of tax payers dollars. You think because someone has some training and a sense of pride that it changes who they are deep down inside? I think not. Bad people do bad things and usually its just a matter of time before they do it again. Yes give them a chance to change, if they don't stick them down in a hole to rot. At what point is enough, enough? How many people have to be robbed, beaten or raped by an individual before we bury them and make the world a safer place? The people that support all this rehabilitation obviously have never been a victim of a crime. Where is the free job training for the teenage girl who was raped, or the guy that got beaten with a pistol and car jacked. How about the grandmother who lost everything to some investment scam. Where is the help for those people? Or what you think think some free counseling and food stamps is sufficient for them? Think about what your saying. Other countries have less people in jail because, its usually a death sentence. Wether by a firing squad, jail conditions or self managing prison systems were inmate watch themselves (kill each other). What fantasy world do you live in? The middle east has one of the lowest personal theft crime rates. You know why? Because the penalty could literally cost you your hand...

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

I simply shocked.

So,

What happen to getting a "second chance in life" ?
To become a productive citizen ?
Paying for your crimes and move on ?

Maybe with the attitude that has been shown in this thread is why the return to prison rate is so high.

So we have a program that works, but some would rather spend millions of dollars to keep someone from breaking their cycle.and become a possible model citizen and potential positive role model.

its no wonder why america has the highest % of its citizens in prisons.

Convicts who wind up in State DOC prisons have had second chances. Why is it our responsibility to do, for them, what they refused to do for themselves? These are not misunderstood, one time mistake, less fortunate people. They grew up in the same USA I grew up in. After over 20 years in Law Enforcement I have learned people will either do for themselves or let everyone else do for them. They have no problem letting someone pay for their education, hat, gear, job placement. If you feel so strongly, sponsor one every few years, and put them up at your place while they show the world they have changed and are reformed. If you are not willing to do that I am not sure your argument is a valid one.

Take a look at a map and place the USA against a map of most other countries. Most other countries are what we call states. Therefore that comparison is also flawed. To compare the USA you would have to take all of China, or all of Europe, or all of Russia, etc. What they call presidents, queens, prime ministers, etc, we call governors.

The reason the prison rate is so high is that people make poor choices when they are growing up. When they are grown they have to live with those choices. Personal responsibility applies to everyone.........even those poor convicts.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Nobody said anything about not getting a second chance... You go to jail.... You get out, here is your second chance. So what, if we don't pay to train you to be a commercial diver and give you the opportunity to make six figures then when you come back some how thats our fault. Nobody wants to spend Billions (not millions) of dollars on inmates. Thats why I support tent cities and chain gangs across america. That would reduce it from billions to millions. Technical training for inmates is a joke and a waste of tax payers dollars. You think because someone has some training and a sense of pride that it changes who they are deep down inside? I think not. Bad people do bad things and usually its just a matter of time before they do it again. Yes give them a chance to change, if they don't stick them down in a hole to rot. At what point is enough, enough? How many people have to be robbed, beaten or raped by an individual before we bury them and make the world a safer place? The people that support all this rehabilitation obviously have never been a victim of a crime. Where is the free job training for the teenage girl who was raped, or the guy that got beaten with a pistol and car jacked. How about the grandmother who lost everything to some investment scam. Where is the help for those people? Or what you think think some free counseling and food stamps is sufficient for them? Think about what your saying. Other countries have less people in jail because, its usually a death sentence. Wether by a firing squad, jail conditions or self managing prison systems were inmate watch themselves (kill each other). What fantasy world do you live in? The middle east has one of the lowest personal theft crime rates. You know why? Because the penalty could literally cost you your hand...

Dude...you appear to have some unresolved issues there you might want to work on, or at least you are letting your own biases get in the way of sound policy and economic decisions.

The reality is that regardless of program size, the graduate of this program have marketable skills, a potential means of support, something to take pride in and a reason not to re-offend.

If my choice is to choose between pissing you off and providing a reasonable opportunity for someone to become a productive member of society, someone who more often than not lacked some of the breaks and advantages you or I may have had, it's pretty clear I'm not gonna make you happy.

It's also pretty clear that any program with a 7% recidivism rate is a LOT more cost effective than the $47,107 per year it costs, on average to keep an inmate in a CA correctional facility for one year.

... I'm from Cali, born and raised. 90% of my family resides there. I can tell you from my point of view, CA residents have better things to spend their money on.

I absolutely agree that Californians have better things to spend their money on than corrections. Thus this particular program, or any other program with a recidivism rate of only 7%, is a very sound investment that will save enormous sums of money over the long term.

Of course, you might also want to consider that as a Cali born and bred native son, your comments may be demonstrating to the rest of us the kind of short sighted and self interest driven thinking by CA voters and policy makers that's gotten California in the financial toilet they are in now.

 

[Zen Diving Inc.]

Dude...you appear to have some unresolved issues there you might want to work on, or at least you are letting your own biases get in the way of sound policy and economic decisions.

I have already stated my views, clearly. If you want to talk about it I suggest you send a PM. I don't see any reason to hijack this thread over a difference of opinion.

 

[John_B]

I'd like to see the "successful" ex-cons pay the state back the full cost of receiving that training.

 

[Superlyte27]

They are, in the way of income tax. More than that, they are not a siphon on the system by being an inmate at the cost of 40k+ per year. Everyone wins but the competition. And I say the price is worth it.

 

[John_B]

They are, in the way of income tax. More than that, they are not a siphon on the system by being an inmate at the cost of 40k+ per year. Everyone wins but the competition. And I say the price is worth it.

As a former California resident, this is exactly the thinking that causes the state to be so broke. These are convicted felons we're talking about here.

When the prisons are full, they are full. You don't save $40K+ per year, you just have a different inmate serve a greater percentage of their sentence (vs. early release).

And each ex-con is taking that job away from a law-abiding citizen, so the net income tax impact would be a wash.

If these ex-cons want to walk the straight and narrow, make them walk the same path that honest Joe's walk. At minimum, calculate the average cost of attending a legitimate private commercial dive school in California and have the ex-con write a check to the state every month until it's paid back -- with interest. If it's really a student loan, then follow the same terms an honest student would have follow to pay the money back.

Edit: Being that these are ex-cons, it might be better for the state to have that money deducted from their checks before they ever see it.

 

[Duke Dive Medicine]

The original intent of the thread was not to incite controversy, but since it's here...

When I first started teaching at the College of Oceaneering in 1993, student tuition was $13,500 for 50 weeks. This is roughly equivalent to the average annual tuition at UCLA at the time. By comparison, here are the average annual tuition rates of some other schools in 1993:

USC and Caltech: about $22,000.
Harvard Business School: $18,550.
California State university system: about $2,000.

Is it fair to compare the cost of putting an inmate through a vocational program to the cost of a private, for-profit commercial diving school?

Of course the inmate diving program is selective. They don't take violent offenders, and the attrition rate is high. The program is geared toward men who have the potential for rehabilitation, but could also easily return to crime upon release. There's no scientific way to predict what would have happened to program graduates had they NOT completed the program, and perhaps the recidivism rate of that select group would be less than the 65-odd percent of the California correctional system as a whole (source: http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Adult_Resear...ts/ARB_FY_0708_Recidivism_Report_10.23.12.pdf). I suspect, though, that it wouldn't be less than 7%.

This isn't the place for a philosophical argument about the American prison system, and I don't want to hijack my own thread. I do, however, think it's worth considering that students of the inmate diving program would be incarcerated anyway. While they're in prison, would we rather have them studying diving physics, or advanced carjacking techniques? Recompression chamber operation, or crystal meth synthesis and marketing? The inmate diving program is not a handout. It's an entire behavior modification program that, as Superlyte 27 has pointed out, gives graduates something to be proud of. The rest of the correctional system would do well to take a lesson from it.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Or we can just continue to criminalize people for past behavior and expect them to re-offend on release. It's just a choice.