Checklists: If surgical teams don't comply, what hope do divers have?

[Manatee Diver]

Sure, you can come up with scenarios where very inexperienced OC divers fall into an incident pit because they forgot their fins or something. But the idea of trying to change the culture of the massive and very diverse population of OC rec divers so that they use physical checklists just seems impossible to me.

If you start at the bottom by the time they move on to CCR checklists would be ingrained into the culture. Do I really need a checklist to putter around shaming bugs in a Cub or even a Cessna? No, but you still use one for safety's sake.

 

[doctormike]

If you start at the bottom by the time they move on to CCR checklists would be ingrained into the culture. Do I really need a checklist to putter around shaming bugs in a Cub or even a Cessna? No, but you still use one for safety's sake.

I have no idea what the aviation references mean, but I do know that CCR and OC diving are fundamentally different activities, not just different points on the same slope.

How about a checklist for for the drive to the OC dive site? Statistically more dangerous, right?

 

[Manatee Diver]

I have no idea what the aviation references mean, but I do know that CCR and OC diving are fundamentally different activities, not just different points on the same slope.

The Cub and the lower end Cessnas are simple aircraft with limited systems, they are the type of aircraft where checklists almost unneeded. You could easily view it the same way you view diving OC, and many professional pilots do. Yet training emphasizes checklist even at this low level because all training is a progression, the habits you pick up there will be hard to break later. Sure diving CCR is a whole separate world where the only thing in common is the basic physics and the fact that you are both diving, but so is flying an airliner.

Personally I was surprised at how basic dive training was, compared to other things that I've accomplished getting my OWD, and AOW felt like "That's it?"

 

[doctormike]

The Cub and the lower end Cessnas are simple aircraft with limited systems, they are the type of aircraft where checklists almost unneeded. You could easily view it the same way you view diving OC, and many professional pilots do. Yet training emphasizes checklist even at this low level because all training is a progression, the habits you pick up there will be hard to break later. Sure diving CCR is a whole separate world where the only thing in common is the basic physics and the fact that you are both diving, but so is flying an airliner.

Personally I was surprised at how basic dive training was, compared to other things that I've accomplished getting my OWD, and AOW felt like "That's it?"

So you feel that physical checklists should be encouraged for OC non-deco diving?

 

[Dsix36]

I used a checklist religiously right up until I got a rEvo. I made up my own for the Dolphin and I used the one I got during training for the Optima. When I finally moved to the rEvo I found the build list to be a PITA since the unit was so darned fast and easy to build.

One of my buddies and his wife were constantly asking me about a checklist and prebreathing. My reply was simple, "that is what the descent is for". Obviously I never killed myself but after their constant nagging I began to feel like maybe I was not as incapable of error as I thought I was and began working on a pre-dive list that was concise and simple enough that I would actually use it. It took several attempts until I got the right one and even then after a couple of years, I ended up having to add an item.

I now use white electrical tape on each of my Shearwaters for my invaluable info. My primary holds the pre-dive list and the secondary holds the planned and absolute max TTS numbers for the dive.

This system works perfectly for me and I actually use it. I think my buddies feel a bit better too.

It has nothing unit specific and will work for any unit I move to in the future.

PS - I believe in wet breathing every regulator prior to every dive to verify they work properly underwater (Thank you Mel Clark). This is pretty simple to do while cave diving as I just do it in the basin prior to donning the BO tank. I have actually caught an extremely wet breath at Eagle Nest prior to a big dive and thus has validated this for me. However it is not very practical when boat diving. I have developed an new method of rigging BO tanks to help with this. Ever time i put a reg on a tank, before pressurizing, I stick the reg in my gob pull negative pressure and see if it holds, then I pressurize and continue with normal checks.

 

[Manatee Diver]

So you feel that physical checklists should be encouraged for OC non-deco diving?

If your goal is to get checklist usage more normalized in later diving progression where pre-dive equipment setup and configuration is more important? Yes, but it won't make OC diving all that much safer.

 

[The Chairman]

You do a stereo check when you are in the unit?

I didn't mean stereo check at all. Mea culpa! I do a brief leak check both empty and full.

This system works perfectly for me and I actually use it.

This. This is the most important part of any checklist. It works so well that you actually use it.

 

[doctormike]

If your goal is to get checklist usage more normalized in later diving progression where pre-dive equipment setup and configuration is more important? Yes, but it won't make OC diving all that much safer.

OK, gotcha. Gotta disagree.

Trying include physical checklists into the training curriculum for basic OW divers sounds virtually impossible. It would divert teaching and mental resources in already abbreviated classes for the possible benefit of only the tiny percentage of those students who go on to rebreather diving.

On the other hand, designing and promoting products that make it easy to induce the very small number of people who are motivated enough to dive a CCR to actually use them, where they are already officially considered to be good practice, seems like a more worthwhile goal.

 

[northernone]

An unpopular opinion, however I did read the checklist manifesto book willing to change.


I've needed checklists professionally. I hate them. Even when designing myself exactly how I like them.

In this hobby I do not find it a helpful tool for enjoying my pass time.

I'd rather delight in the mental process of thinking through the items I'm bringing with me and keeping my problem solving mentality fresh by focusing on functionality and purpose rather than a checklist designed for efficiency.

I used a predive checklist for my first 400hrs on my rebreather, it's certainly not a theory I would apply to recreational fun diving.

Dive and let dive,
Cameron

 

[Diver-Drex]

OK, gotcha. Gotta disagree.

Trying include physical checklists into the training curriculum for basic OW divers sounds virtually impossible. It would divert teaching and mental resources in already abbreviated classes for the possible benefit of only the tiny percentage of those students who go on to rebreather diving.

On the other hand, designing and promoting products that make it easy to induce the very small number of people who are motivated enough to dive a CCR to actually use them, where they are already officially considered to be good practice, seems like a more worthwhile goal.

Agreed on the difficulty and limited utility of physical checklists for rec diving. As diving becomes more asvanced it’s a great situation for a mnemonic. However, the mnemonic or physical checklist, is only useful if people are trained to use them.

When stressed, rushed, tired, etc people fall back on their habits. If good habits are formed in training those habits will appear at the right time.

If CCR divers aren’t using checklists that already exist is it because they aren’t being trained to use them?

Do they stop using them because they don’t see a positive result from it? If you do something 100 times and you never detect a fault complacency sets in and use drops off?

Do they stop using them because the checklists are overly complicated or excessively long or difficult?

If it’s either of the first two, creating a new checklist is likely to be of little help. Continued reinforcement of the correct behavior is the answer. Peers need to hold each other to the correct procedure. A predive checklist, a mnenonic or physical list, is useful for the advanced and beginning tec level dives I do. They may be excessive for basic OW dives but I still do them every dive and with everyone I dive with. Whether a buddy, instabuddy or as a DM. Leading by example and holding others to the standard is what builds culture. That process needs to start well before a CCR enters the picture.