Certification Levels

[Darnold9999]

I bet you also got a Skin Diver card as well....

Not that I remember, but after that many years who remembers?

 

[fjpatrum]

Here's your problem--how do you know your Mentor is any good?

I learned to ski from Mentors, and when I finally had enough money to take lessons, they were never fully able to undo all the bad habits I had picked up from those Mentors.

Anyone who reads ScubaBoard regularly has read over and over and over again about all the sad looking divers they see. Which one of those will you choose to be your Mentor?

Anyone who reads ScubaBoard regularly has seen over and over and over again the really bad advice some experienced divers give on these threads. Which one of those will you choose to be your Mentor?

I have taught several classes in which students told me that they already had Mentors who will guide them after class, Mentors who had already told them that they didn't need to learn about tables or use a computer because the dive masters take care of all of that for them.

Yes, the value of an AOW course varies dramatically by the instructor you choose, so you may get one that isn't so hot, but I would be your chances of getting good advice are at least somewhat better than the chances you will get good advice from a friend who happens to have been diving for a while.

John, I somehow missed this post when this discussion was more active. While I respect your opinion, your logic holds the same whether I'm choosing a mentor or an instructor. How do you know they're any good?

As one of those people who reads scubaboard all the time and who tends to be a research spaz, I would say I'd choose mentors based on what they look like in the water and what they talk like out of the water. TSandM has posted links to the dive sherpa website at least 4 or 5 times that I've read and I use that as a basis of what someone should look like in the water. Out of the water, I look for an open minded attitude about dive styles and choices and a willingness to educate people. The combination of those two things, I think, will steer me in the right direction, whether choosing mentors or instructors.

 

[boulderjohn]

John, I somehow missed this post when this discussion was more active. While I respect your opinion, your logic holds the same whether I'm choosing a mentor or an instructor. How do you know they're any good?

As one of those people who reads scubaboard all the time and who tends to be a research spaz, I would say I'd choose mentors based on what they look like in the water and what they talk like out of the water. TSandM has posted links to the dive sherpa website at least 4 or 5 times that I've read and I use that as a basis of what someone should look like in the water. Out of the water, I look for an open minded attitude about dive styles and choices and a willingness to educate people. The combination of those two things, I think, will steer me in the right direction, whether choosing mentors or instructors.

As your post suggests, the problem with evaluating the skills of either an instructor or a Mentor is that you have to know what to look for. Lots of research has shown that people who are not knowledgeable about a topic will often be unable to tell the difference between competence and incompetence. There is no question that a non-instructing Mentor can have better skills than an instructor, but I would have to say such people are in the minority and are hard to find. If you have a vision, as you say you do, of what a good diver looks like, spend some time at a resort or other area typically frequented by divers in need of a Mentor and tell me how many you see that you would recommend.

In a post above this one, you thanked Mayor for offering to introduce you to two of his Mentors--Trace Malinowski and Bob Sherwood. I bet they are indeed good Mentors, which may have to do with the fact that they are also extremely well trained and experienced instructors. One is the Director of instruction for his agency, and the other is probably the top instructor for his. If you go to them and ask them to provide friendly Mentoring, you are actually asking them to give you for free what they do for a living, kind of like asking a surgeon to take out your gall bladder for free.

 

[fjpatrum]

As your post suggests, the problem with evaluating the skills of either an instructor or a Mentor is that you have to know what to look for. Lots of research has shown that people who are not knowledgeable about a topic will often be unable to tell the difference between competence and incompetence. There is no question that a non-instructing Mentor can have better skills than an instructor, but I would have to say such people are in the minority and are hard to find. If you have a vision, as you say you do, of what a good diver looks like, spend some time at a resort or other area typically frequented by divers in need of a Mentor and tell me how many you see that you would recommend.

In a post above this one, you thanked Mayor for offering to introduce you to two of his Mentors--Trace Malinowski and Bob Sherwood. I bet they are indeed good Mentors, which may have to do with the fact that they are also extremely well trained and experienced instructors. One is the Director of instruction for his agency, and the other is probably the top instructor for his. If you go to them and ask them to provide friendly Mentoring, you are actually asking them to give you for free what they do for a living, kind of like asking a surgeon to take out your gall bladder for free.

Funny, I was going to post about the number of poor divers I've seen in my limited experience so far as a way to express that I do have at least some idea of what a good diver is versus what isn't. Granted, my information is based on other (more experienced) people's opinions of what is a good diver. Those folks' opinions, however, have been shaped over time and I have read an awful lot that supports those opinions from at least a dozen or so sources.

As for thanking Mayor, I was more thanking him for offering to dive with me (and reminding me of that) than his offer to meet his mentors, whose names I recognize, which is saying something. While it would be great to dive with folks with that kind of experience I would never presume to ask them to be my mentors. That's just rude, in my opinion. From my perspective, a mentor chooses the student, not the other way around. If I meet someone whom I think is capable of being a good mentor, and they choose to dive with me more than once (or even once) I will be thankful but I would never ask someone to provide that information/relationship for free "just because". The only exception to that is the "virtual mentor" position I treat several scuba board members as having. These are people, like TSandM, or NWGratefulDiver, who consistently post supportive and helpful information that is corroborated by other experienced divers.

Yes, they could be posting total crap from my newb perspective, but I have read enough to believe they are not. At some point, you have to make a judgement as to the quality of the information you're getting. In the end, the only way to know for sure is to dive and see if other people want to dive with you, I guess.

 

[Mayor]

As your post suggests, the problem with evaluating the skills of either an instructor or a Mentor is that you have to know what to look for. Lots of research has shown that people who are not knowledgeable about a topic will often be unable to tell the difference between competence and incompetence. There is no question that a non-instructing Mentor can have better skills than an instructor, but I would have to say such people are in the minority and are hard to find. If you have a vision, as you say you do, of what a good diver looks like, spend some time at a resort or other area typically frequented by divers in need of a Mentor and tell me how many you see that you would recommend.In a post above this one, you thanked Mayor for offering to introduce you to two of his Mentors--Trace Malinowski and Bob Sherwood. I bet they are indeed good Mentors, which may have to do with the fact that they are also extremely well trained and experienced instructors. One is the Director of instruction for his agency, and the other is probably the top instructor for his. If you go to them and ask them to provide friendly Mentoring, you are actually asking them to give you for free what they do for a living, kind of like asking a surgeon to take out your gall bladder for free.

Maybe mentor was the wrong choice of words but for me it never felt that way. It always felt like they were my friends who wanted me to be the best diver I could be. They felt your pain on bad dives and your joy on good ones. The information and skill set I was given (paid for) has made me a solid diver. It also opened me up to a well trained group of divers who will help anyway they can. Many of us have offered gear and training dives to help fellow divers who understand what's possible.

 

[EastEndDiver]

Yes it is a recent development,especially in Florida...The operators see many people diving every day that perhaps should NEVER have been certified and are attempting to limit their liability. Most operators once they see you in the water and are competent will allow you to dive without a need for a guide.
Many operators on Grand Cayman now want proof of diving within the past 2 years.If you have not dove in 2 years or more you need to do a refresher with them or at home before flying down. Have not dove in 10 years or more;Cayman operators want you to take ENTIRE open water course over..

Which Cayman ops are requiring this? I spend 4-6 weeks a year on island and have never heard of this.

 

[Mayor]

Funny, I was going to post about the number of poor divers I've seen in my limited experience so far as a way to express that I do have at least some idea of what a good diver is versus what isn't. Granted, my information is based on other (more experienced) people's opinions of what is a good diver.

What does a good diver look like? I was luckily enough to see that control and grace in the water. It made me want more, it made me want that control. So if you can find a diver that looks like this then ask some questions.

 

[fjpatrum]

What does a good diver look like? I was luckily enough to see that control and grace in the water. It made me want more, it made me want that control. So if you can find a diver that looks like this then ask some questions.

Exactly. Pics like this, and the info on divesherpa and similar sites are what I have been basing my judgement on. Scubaboard provides an awful lot of resources for us newbs to be able to actually determine what are good habits and what aren't, if we actually do a little reading.

 

[boulderjohn]

What does a good diver look like? I was luckily enough to see that control and grace in the water. It made me want more, it made me want that control. So if you can find a diver that looks like this then ask some questions.

I can't begin to estimate the number of dives and the number of locations I had dived around the world before I saw a diver who looked like that. I also can't begin to estimate the number of more experienced (but poorly skilled) divers who offered me advice during that time.

Let's say that I am a relatively new diver and see such a diver. He can't be any good. He does not have his arms folded as I was taught. His legs are bent at the knees, and he is not using a proper flutter kick. No hope for proper instruction there.

Next, where will the average relative new diver run into a diver with a dry suit, double tanks, canister light, etc.? They usually aren't showing up in those 28 foot excursions off Key Largo.

Just to repeat the problem, unless you really know what you are looking for, you won't know a good Mentor from a steer-you-wrong fool. Unless you are diving beyond the normal new diver range, you won't even meet these guys. If you want to be Mentored by someone like this, you have to do a ton of research first, and then you have to go to places outside the ordinary world of recreational diving. I bet 90% of the people reading a thread in Basic Scuba have never seen someone like this and have no idea where to find one.

 

[Mayor]

I can't begin to estimate the number of dives and the number of locations I had dived around the world before I saw a diver who looked like that. I also can't begin to estimate the number of more experienced (but poorly skilled) divers who offered me advice during that time.Let's say that I am a relatively new diver and see such a diver. He can't be any good. He does not have his arms folded as I was taught. His legs are bent at the knees, and he is not using a proper flutter kick. No hope for proper instruction there.Next, where will the average relative new diver run into a diver with a dry suit, double tanks, canister light, etc.? They usually aren't showing up in those 28 foot excursions off Key Largo.Just to repeat the problem, unless you really know what you are looking for, you won't know a good Mentor from a steer-you-wrong fool. Unless you are diving beyond the normal new diver range, you won't even meet these guys. If you want to be Mentored by someone like this, you have to do a ton of research first, and then you have to go to places outside the ordinary world of recreational diving. I bet 90% of the people reading a thread in Basic Scuba have never seen someone like this and have no idea where to find one.

That was a picture from a fun dive with Trace that made me look at my own diving. I was a rescue something back then and had no clue. Your right about people not seeing this level but if you ask around some names keep coming up. There is a reason for that!