Certification Levels

[boulderjohn]

The deep dive for AOW has to be a minimum of 60ft and at the discretion of the instructor can be deeper up to 100ft.

Perhaps you were told that, but here is the entire depth language from the PADI Instructor Manual:

4. Conduct dive between 18-30 metres/60-100 feet.

When I first started instructing, one of the instructors working for the shop for which I was instructing was found to be routinely taking students deeper than 100 feet so that they could truly feel narcosis. He was confronted by the shop's Course Director and was unrepentant. The Course Director conferred with PADI and then had him fired.

 

[Jax]

I walk in the shop and hand them a tech card for decompression diving......Shop....."Great but do you have an AOW card"Me........"Your holding one".Shop....."No something from PADI or NAUI".Me........"I returned those" Shop....."if you don't have an AOW card the depth limit will be 60ft"Me........"can you read"Me......." I will need Nitrox"Shop...." are you an enriched air diver?"Me....... " yes, here is my card" Shop...." it only reads advanced Nitrox up to 100%"Me......."ok"Shop...."let me get a manager"The funny thing is I always dive with good ops on vacation?

That's exactly why I take all my cards with me. I dropped an Advanced Nitrox card on the desk -
"I've never heard of advanced Nitrox; what's it for?"
"Decompression procedures."
"I'm sorry, you can't do that here. We don't allow decompression."

 

[boulderjohn]

That's exactly why I take all my cards with me. I dropped an Advanced Nitrox card on the desk -
"I've never heard of advanced Nitrox; what's it for?"
"Decompression procedures."
"I'm sorry, you can't do that here. We don't allow decompression."

This does not remotely surprise me at all.

The vast majority of dive shops deal completely with standard recreational diving and have no idea whatsoever what goes on with technical diving. They have no idea how decompression stops are done, and they have no idea that nitrox percentages about 40% are routinely used to accelerate decompression. In nearly 100% of their experiences, they have no need to know any of this.

 

[Mayor]

On a single 80 or even larger I get a bit uneasy below 100ft. If I have doubles or sling a 40 it starts to go away.

 

[Mayor]

As I understand it, OW is still 130 feet, but it is "recommended" that divers not exceed 60. Right or wrong, my first two dives after OW were in Hawaii on vacation and went to about 75-80 feet. I was comfortable, my buddy was comfortable, the guide was comfortable, no problem. I suspect that happens to a lot of vacation divers. I have no intention of getting AOW as I think it's purely a money grab and I'm better served diving with some good mentors... but I'm a stubborn know-it-all. As I said, most of the ops I've spoken with said they have a policy that AOW is required, or a DM hired, or (unwritten policy) dive with them enough that they can "check you out" and you're good to go. I'm comfortable with all of those options despite not wanting to take and AOW course.

Finding the right instructor to take the course from is key. Don't get hung up on the organization. If you like PADI but you know of a outstanding SDI instructor then take the SDI. Please no fish I'd!

 

[Jim Lapenta]

As I understand it, OW is still 130 feet, but it is "recommended" that divers not exceed 60. Right or wrong, my first two dives after OW were in Hawaii on vacation and went to about 75-80 feet. I was comfortable, my buddy was comfortable, the guide was comfortable, no problem.

I suspect that happens to a lot of vacation divers.

I have no intention of getting AOW as I think it's purely a money grab and I'm better served diving with some good mentors... but I'm a stubborn know-it-all. As I said, most of the ops I've spoken with said they have a policy that AOW is required, or a DM hired, or (unwritten policy) dive with them enough that they can "check you out" and you're good to go. I'm comfortable with all of those options despite not wanting to take and AOW course.

Depends on the AOW you take. You are in DC which is not far from me. I've had students come from North Carolina, Philly, Virginia, and Cincinnati, Ohio to take my AOW. I guarantee it is not a money grab. I do six dives.

Advanced Skills
UW Nav
Night/Low Vis
Deep
Search and Recovery
Buddy Skills and Assist

You can sub wreck for S&R or add a second nav dive if you want. Those are the only options I offer. 8 hours classroom, plus on site academics between dives. You'll shoot bags, sling a bottle, do no mask swims and ascents with your buddy. You will also have to do an air share ascending from 90 feet after running a reel on a horizontal in the dark with the very real chance of a total silt out. Average dive time for the class over 6 dives is 6 1/2 - 7 hours. All dives are min of 1 hour with lone exception of the deep dive. It ends up at 54 minutes or so and is also considered a mutli level using deep stops.


On another note I had to check my standards to be sure because Bob is never wrong. Except on this one issue. YMCA Scuba depth limit has always been 100 feet, not 130. While the tables did go to 130 it is clearly stated at the end of every section in the standards from OW thru Silver Advanced. And I quote -

"The YMCA Scuba program does not recommend any sport diver exceed the depth of 100 feet."

SEI has adopted this same policy and it is for that reason I am doing a crossover to SDI/TDI to offer a deep specialty that will allow one to exceed the 100 foot limit. As a YMCA Silver and now SEI Instructor I have never conducted a training dive or led a student below 100 feet even though I myself have been beyond that many times. And more than a few times solo.

 

[daniel1948]

The deep dive for AOW has to be a minimum of 60ft and at the discretion of the instructor can be deeper up to 100ft. Since this is likely the student's first dive beyond 60ft, I would think in most cases it would be prudent for the instructor only go a little beyond 60ft and maybe a little deeper on the next.

As I understand it, OW is still 130 feet, but it is "recommended" that divers not exceed 60. Right or wrong, my first two dives after OW were in Hawaii on vacation and went to about 75-80 feet. I was comfortable, my buddy was comfortable, the guide was comfortable, no problem.

When I first started instructing, one of the instructors working for the shop for which I was instructing was found to be routinely taking students deeper than 100 feet so that they could truly feel narcosis. He was confronted by the shop's Course Director and was unrepentant. The Course Director conferred with PADI and then had him fired.

My OW instructor described the deep dive in the AOW course this way: He would have me solve some sort of puzzle requiring mental activity and he would time me. Then he would take me to 100 feet and time me again as I solved the same (or a similar?) puzzle. The time difference would allow me to understand the effects of narcosis.

When the OW recommended limit is 60 fsw, and the recreational limit (presumably for AOW divers) is 130, it seems insufficient to take AOW students to less than 100 feet, and even then you would not know how 130 feels.

As I mentioned before, in Cozumel I was assured that I would be perfectly comfortable at 85 feet, and indeed, I was quite comfortable. I am comfortable in the water. I've been a snorkeler all my life, and a sort of mini-freediver (10 to 12 feet or so) until I learned to freedive deeper than that. But there's a big difference between being comfortable and being competent. I was comfortable in Cozumel at 85 feet, but I doubt I could have made a controlled emergency ascent safely from 85 feet.

Nobody should dive beyond their comfort level. But comfort is not sufficient for safety. In Cozumel (my first dive trip after getting certified) 85 feet was within my comfort level, but outside my competence level. I have a lot more experience now, and if there is a reason for it I'll go to 85 feet, and once went to 99 feet, after a DM took us through a swim-through without having told us how deep we would be. But my preference is 60 fsw and shallower, knowing I am safer there.

 

[boulderjohn]

My OW instructor described the deep dive in the AOW course this way: He would have me solve some sort of puzzle requiring mental activity and he would time me. Then he would take me to 100 feet and time me again as I solved the same (or a similar?) puzzle. The time difference would allow me to understand the effects of narcosis.

That part of the course has been removed. The problem was that people were usually insufficiently narced to have a problem; in fact, having practiced it once on the surface, they often did better repeating it at depth.

When the OW recommended limit is 60 fsw, and the recreational limit (presumably for AOW divers) is 130, it seems insufficient to take AOW students to less than 100 feet, and even then you would not know how 130 feels.

I want to take students as close to 100 feet as possible during the AOW dive so that they can experience the speed with which they go through their breathing gas. That's a very good thing to know. If they continue past that one AOW deep dive and take the Deep Diver specialty, they go to 130.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My OW instructor described the deep dive in the AOW course this way: He would have me solve some sort of puzzle requiring mental activity and he would time me. Then he would take me to 100 feet and time me again as I solved the same (or a similar?) puzzle. The time difference would allow me to understand the effects of narcosis.

Problem I have with this sort of exercise ... particularly with inexperienced divers ... is that narcosis isn't the only affecting factor. In fact, it's not even the most significant one ... that would be reduced dexterity due to exposure equipment and cold water. At least, in areas like where I teach, where divers are forced to wear heavy gloves when diving. Another significant factor is the mental pressures of just being in an unfamiliar environment ... keeping in mind that the majority of AOW students are fresh out of OW and barely able to function underwater. Taken as a whole, narcosis isn't the majority of the difference between either a dexterity or mental acuity test underwater ... which, to my concern, makes it a rather pointless exercise.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[drrich2]

As I said, most of the ops I've spoken with said they have a policy that AOW is required, or a DM hired, or (unwritten policy) dive with them enough that they can "check you out" and you're good to go. I'm comfortable with all of those options despite not wanting to take and AOW course.

That would work in some situations. On the other hand, a number of people dive on cruise ship stops, for example, and do a 2-tank boat dive with a charter boat operator that one day only. Assuming someone is inclined to take the time and potential liability to 'watch' you on the first dive, you could still be put in a 'newbie' group headed to a shallower site, as opposed to a 'better' site for a group with AOW, Deep or better cert.s.

Sometimes, Life's just easier when you've got the credentials to do what you wanna do without extra hassles.

Richard.