CDX-5 overbalancing feature

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Ah, that may give you some issues intermixing mfgrs.

I would not say anyone can do it, most divers do not understand how regulators work.

In my experience Doug drops in every day or so unless he is traveling. However Oceanic takes a stance on having there factory trained reps take care of any issues. He would most likely recommend taking your reg to a shop for testing or send it into Oceanic.
 
Straight off the Oceanic website:
"The CDX-5 high performance over-balanced first stage provides progressively greater intermediate pressure as depth and gas density increases."

So, is it 15psi with each 1atm of depth starting at the surface????
If that's the case, then on the surface the IP would be/is ~140psi, at 33ft 155psi....at 132ft IP would be 200psi...no offense, but I have some reservations about the 15psi IP increase with each additional 1atm of depth.
At any rate, I'm in the process of tuning my 2nd stage to handle higher IP.
I'll post the results.

Well yes and no. All regs increase their IP as ambient pressure increases if you use the surface as your reference point (PSIA+ 1atm) but PSIG -the difference between the ambient pressure (surrounding water) and the IP pressure reading does not change. In other words as you decend the IP of your reg increases by 14.7 psi for every 33 ft you decend (roughly) to compensate for the increasing ambient pressure and to keep the differential pressure between your IP and the outside pressure constant. If you were to take a gauge that was vented to water pressure down with you and checked your IP at depth, it would read exactly the same at depth as it does at the surface because the reference- ambient pressure- had also increased. That keeps the differential pressure on each side of your LP seat constant and therefore cracking pressure constant. As I understand it, overbalancing actually increases the difference between ambient and IP pressure or instead of increasing by 14.7 psi/33 ft it may increase by 16psi/33ft (a purely guesstimate number). If that is the case, sooner or later your second stage must begin to freeflow unless they are grossly misadjusted at the surface OR if they are balanced, the balancing function of the second stage should compensate for the increased IP differential until it reaches it's limit at which point even a balanced second stage would start to freeflow....I am just not sure the extra few PSI would do much good.
Am I off the mark DA???
 
Ah, that may give you some issues intermixing mfgrs.

I would not say anyone can do it, most divers do not understand how regulators work.

In my experience Doug drops in every day or so unless he is traveling. However Oceanic takes a stance on having there factory trained reps take care of any issues. He would most likely recommend taking your reg to a shop for testing or send it into Oceanic.

The problem I had originally was with my 2nd stage scubamax, not the 1st stage oceanic, so I doubt oceanic could help me there. However, I thought that since Oceanic touts their CDX-5 as an overbalanced regulator they could offer some numerical data to support their claims.
My original post asked nothing about how to fix or modify any equipment so I don't see any applicable liability issues here.
 
Well yes and no. All regs increase their IP as ambient pressure increases if you use the surface as your reference point (PSIA+ 1atm) but PSIG -the difference between the ambient pressure (surrounding water) and the IP pressure reading does not change. In other words as you decend the IP of your reg increases by 14.7 psi for every 33 ft you decend (roughly) to compensate for the increasing ambient pressure and to keep the differential pressure between your IP and the outside pressure constant. If you were to take a gauge that was vented to water pressure down with you and checked your IP at depth, it would read exactly the same at depth as it does at the surface because the reference- ambient pressure- had also increased. That keeps the differential pressure on each side of your LP seat constant and therefore cracking pressure constant. As I understand it, overbalancing actually increases the difference between ambient and IP pressure or instead of increasing by 14.7 psi/33 ft it may increase by 16psi/33ft (a purely guesstimate number). If that is the case, sooner or later your second stage must begin to freeflow unless they are grossly misadjusted at the surface OR if they are balanced, the balancing function of the second stage should compensate for the increased IP differential until it reaches it's limit at which point even a balanced second stage would start to freeflow....I am just not sure the extra few PSI would do much good.
Am I off the mark DA???

I understand the difference between gauge and absolute pressure measurement.
When discussing the 15psi increase with 1atm depth figure in my previous posts, I assumed gauge pressure was implied. The 14.7psi increase in absolute IP pressure with each 1atm of depth is self-evident since that is one of the main purposes of a scuba regulator--provide gas at ambient pressure.
So, to restate my original question, what is the quantitative increase in gauge IP of the CDX-5 with increasing depth. I understand this may not be a linear relationship so I would settle for a numerical table--several depth measurements (preferably in the 130 to 250ft range) and the corresponding GAUGE IPs.
 
A balanced second stage still has to have some downstream bias to act as an overpressure relief valve in the event of a first stage leak. I have noticed that most balanced second stages I have worked with when adjusted for minimum inhalation effort at an IP of 140-145 psi will begin to freeflow when the IP reaches about 175-180 psi - so you have about 30-40 psi to play with in a second stage using a balanced poppet.

At 230 ft and you would have an increase in ambient pressure of 7 atmospheres compared to surface pressure of 1 atmosphere, or about 100 psi greater pressure. Assuming you have an IP of 140 psi at the surface (155 absolute), it would now be 240 psi (255 psi absolute), but still 140 psi over the ambient pressure.

If the reg were overbalanced so that it gained 5 psi of IP for each atmosphere, it would have an internal pressure of 275 psi (290 psi absolute) at 230 ft - about a 13% increase. That would be the most you could push the overbalancing without reducing the down stream bias of the second stage if you wanted a reg that could go to 230-250 ft.

But a 13% increase in pressure is not going to make much difference in the mass flow of the reg as it is basically a linear equation. And if the reg really needs what amounts to "supercharging" to push enough gas through the internal passages, you need a better reg in the first place. Most engine designers would not even bother with a supercharger or turbocharger boost of only 13%.

It also causes more problems than it resolves, as you now have a reg that will demand a degree of adjustment as you descend and ascend as the IP is constantly changing realtive to ambient pressure. That makes no sense and I suspect that no designer would intentionally do that to a scuba reg.

So...I have two thoughts on "overbalancing" and both are a bit cynical:

1. It is just marketing hype to sound cool and sells regs with no real impact on IP; or

2. It is an unwanted/unintended side effect of dry sealing the first stage. If the seal and pad do not perfectly transfer the ambient pressure inside the reg to the seat, you will get less than perfect IP compensation with depth. Rather than saying "our reg's depth compensation sucks" we turn it over to the marketing folks who call it a good thing and claim the reg is "overbalanced".

I suspect number 2 has everything to do with it for Oceanic and Apex.

But it gets confusing. Scubapro defines "overbalancing" differently. They used a straight piston stem on the Mk 5, 10, 15 and early Mk 20. What this meant is that the outside diameter of the piston stem at the seating edge was exactly the same as the outside diameter of the piston stem where it passed through the HP o-ring. But the seating edge itself took up a small but still significant bit of the diameter meaning the area at the end of the piston that was acted on by downstream pressure from the tank was slightly less than the area where the stem passed through the HP o-ring. This meant the "balanced" Mk 5, 10, etc, were not perfectly balanced. On average this meant a drop in IP of about 4 to 5 psi as tank pressure fell from of 3300-300 psi. Still not bad, and well within the tolerance of a balanced poppet, but still not perfect.

So Scubapro decided to expand the diameter of the seating end of the piston slightly to increase its diameter so that the diamter of the inside of the seating edge was equal to the diameter of outside of the stem where it passed through the HP o-ring. The result was an IP that did not vary at all and Scubapro called it "overbalancing". The big difference here, beyond the obvious, is that the effect is intentional rather than an artifact of and engineering deficiency.

All that said, I'd love to hear what Oceanic has to say and what the change in Ip with depth happens to be. In either case, whether intentional or not, I suspect the change is slight - perhaps 5 psi per hundred feet.
 
Hello everyone. Knew this was going to get over my head from the start. I've forwarded DA's last post to our lead engineer (formerly our VP - now working via contract) - he's designed/engineered the vast majority of our first and second stages for the past 15 years. I'll paste his response below - and while I have tempted him to come on here to join the discussion, I can't guarantee that. If this creates more questions, I'll do what I can to get an answer.
***************
The reason a first stage regulator uses an overbalanced design to increase first stage ip at depth is to compensate for flow losses in the first stage and the lp hose as the mass flow increases with depth so that the actual intermediate pressure at the second stage does not drop with depth, but actually increases slightly for better regulator performance. At the 230 feet mentioned there is 7 times the airflow going through the regulator than at the surface. The design is not an accidental result of the environmental design, but rather an additional beneficial feature that is essentially free. The design can be made to provide boost, no boost or even reduced pressure with depth. A small amount of boost is the Oceanic choice.

Oceanic non-adjustable second stages all have crack opening efforts set at the factory to prevent any free-flow at depth, so even with the ip boost at depth no adjustment is needed as you descend or ascend.

All Oceanic adjustable second stages have depth compensation in the adjustment mechanism which eliminates adjustment change due to depth change.
This does not compensate for the ip boost, but unless the second stage crack opening effort is set to just slightly higher than free flow at the surface, there should be no need to adjust the second stage at depth.

Except for Oceanic, Aeris and Hollis second stages with the depth compensation adjustment mechanism, all others balanced second stages would require adjustment with depth to maintain the same crack opening effort with or without an ip boosted first stage.

The second area of discussion is basically on the need for correctly sizing the piston orifice sealing area and the piston tube sealing diameter in a balanced piston first stage. This is also the same thing that is done with sizing the orifice diameter and the seat stem diameter in a diaphragm first stage. It is done is order to avoid a change in ip pressure due to tank pressure. It a completely different issue than the boost mechanism of the environmental diaphragm.
 
Doug,please get him online.:D
Better yet force him,this kind of info is so very interresting to read.
Guess all "techs"on board could benefit from this person.:thumbs_up:

btw Doug,NO disrespect to you,:no: you feed us with the best info we can get and know how to help a diver in need.:thumbs_up:
 
All Oceanic adjustable second stages have depth compensation in the adjustment mechanism which eliminates adjustment change due to depth change.
This does not compensate for the ip boost, but unless the second stage crack opening effort is set to just slightly higher than free flow at the surface, there should be no need to adjust the second stage at depth.
This makes me want to go out an buy one just to see how this particular feature works.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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