CCR: Tool or death trap?

[ucfdiver]

On the other hand, I'm 53 years old and I've had a neck surgery and knee arthritis. A set of steel doubles, plus 2 AL 40s, is a large load t be lifting up a ladder or waddling around a pitching deck. I'm trying to convince the spousal unit that I need a rebreather to keep me from suffering. Yes, more demanding to fly. Yes, they require more attention to detail. But then again, so does flying IFR or mountaineering.
The fact that people die doing things is not necessarily damning to the thing being done. Sometimes, the risk is worth it if one is fully informed.

Rebreathers won't really help there. HP100's weigh in similar to CCR, and will require the same deco gas as well as bottom gas to efficiently bail out. All the CCR really saves you is on dives where more than one bottom stages will be used. That's not a whole lot of dives outside of a cave or above 200ft.

Something that also has to be taken into account is the fact that rebreather divers are doing more in the way of extreme dives.

Not really. I've been further back in Ginnie Springs than the last CCR fatality there, I've been deeper than 175 and further into an overhead at the time than the Oriskany fatality, been well beyond the Jackson Blue CCR cave fatality, been as far into Eagles Nest as the CCR fatality there...all on OC.



I won't say CCR doesn't have it's place-- for cave exploration where bailout can be staged and reused it's a huge help. For photography where you can get closer to wildlife, or use equal bailout to do a 30min or 2 hour dive, it's useful. For expedition dives where helium fill stations aren't easily accessible it's useful. For extreme cold water dives where the warmth can make deco safer it's useful. ........it's just for 99% of dives done for recreational purposes that it stands zero real benefit (maybe $100 in breathing gas) and adds a huge risk.

 

[kombiguy]

Doing less (scaling back) is always an option. Not one I wish to contemplate yet. I'd rather look for innovative ways to extend the activities I love than to give them up. That can wait til I'm too old to manage it.
Nobody's seen everything that's deep, either.
I didn't suggest rebreathers were a "magic" anything. They are, however, a tool to expand my capabilities. Like any tool, they can be misued and dangerous. I recall a story about a guy trimming trees with an electric chain saw. He fell off the ladder and into the lake that the trees hung over. Dead of electrocution. Nobody calls chain saws death traps, though. My point is all tools are dangerous, and all tools come with precautions. If you don't like a tool, don't use one. If you use one, use it carefully. No tool is a substitute for your brain. Not even OC scuba.

 

[limeyx]

I always thought tech divers didn't like polls? :mooner:

I propose we have a poll to find out !

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

NOW a question for you.

If a CCR manufacturer or Certifying agency or instructor asked you to complete a stress-test before "allowing" access to their unit/training/program (about a ($60 cost), how would you feel about it and how would YOU react if the test showed you to be at high-risk (let's say around top 15 percentile) of heart attack/stroke?

I would scale back, and count my blessings that I found out about being at a higher-risk before something bad happened in a technical environment.

 

[BabyDuck]

to the original question - *for me*, a rebreather wouldn't even be passively trying to kill me. it would try to strangle me in my sleep, i know it.

i am just NOT the meticulous type, and anyone who doesn't love gear futzing for its own sake doesn't seem to be a good candidate.

so for others, maybe a tool, but not for me.

 

[Superlyte27]

I'm a bit limited here in knowledge, and by limited, I know almost nothing. But, I take CCR training tomorrow. I've spoke with a multitude of people over the last year and the one that hit home the most was Tom Mount who said 9 out of 10 people who died on rebreathers would have lived if they did two things. 1. Turned on their Oxygen 2. Turned on their sensors (or did not dive when their sensors showed a fault).

I believe (and I could be completely wrong) that diving a rebreather is just like cave diving. Follow all the rules every time, you'll come out of the cave every time.

I think it's a tool. But we'll see how I feel next week.

 

[down4fun]

tool.

I think that many people have a knee jerk reaction to rebreathers who really haven't gotten to know one, or how it works. We have so little information released when a RB death occurs that I think everyone wants to point at the Rb and thus justify to themselves that they are safe because they dive o/c.

I also have to agree with Doppler that the demographic of the average RB pilot makes it a higher risk group. There is nothing inherent to a RB that is trying to kill you. It is an inanimate object, just like a gun. sitting by itself on a shelf, it cannot in and of itself, do harm to you. It's what you do with it that causes the outcome.

I have been on a RB for almost 2 years now. It was a tool that I saw as the best fit for the dives i wanted to do and still aspire to do. It does require dedication, and attention to detail. And it's not for everyone. There are some that think it should only be used for extreme dives and the other school of thought that if your are going to be on a RB you should dive that all the time so you are most familiar with it. I dive mine all the time.

Does it have risks? Of course. But everything does. For me I don't feel the risks out weigh the rewards. But that is a decision each must make for themselves.

 

[bobthegoalie]

I am on a rebreather and every time I go diving I have people come up to me and tell me I am stupid to be on a CCR. They tell me it will kill me in time. That I have no idea what I am doing nor will I be able to dive one safely. I even had on person tell me he feels sorry for my parents because they will have to attend my funeral. :shocked2: With that said I love to dive them. I have only started diving them but I am a very meticulous person. I love the fact I have to do it perfect and that people believe the odds are against me. That is what makes it exciting. No I am not a dare devil. But a recreational diver looking at tech divers see them and think there is no way. The same with breathers. I understand many people have dove with people that have units or have heard the accidents. But until you get trained on one and dive one it is really hard to fully understand what it takes to do it successfully. In my opinion it is not that hard.

Going back to the original question of why do I dive a CCR. I dive one because I feel better with one. Let me explain what I mean before you freak out. Lets say you are in a cave on doubles. We all know you have a certain amount of gas to look for a missing diver or to get through a restriction on your way out. Just for an example lets say you have 500psi to look for a diver. Now on a CCR this problem happens. How much time do you have to look? Some may say as long as your bailout will allow. But this is not always true. What is telling me I can't look longer or try to get unstuck? Just because I no longer have enough bailout to get out at that point does not mean I will not make it out alive. Rebreather failures are not all that common. We hear about everyone that happens because they are new and it happens. Hell on my adv nitrox/deco class my deco reg failed twice on two different dives. The exhaust value rolled when I jumped in and didn't know it until I needed the gas. So yes I feel better with a breather because I have unlimited time for an emergency. Every problem can be handled and has a warning before it becomes life threatening except one. CO2. There are definitely units out there that are terrible. Their design or electronics are crap. But there are also ones that are well built.

I will always be the minority on my views which is fine but I am more than willing to walk someone through my unit for hours on end just so they can be more informed about them and make their own decision. They are not for everyone and many will always hate them but if you can restrain yourself don't make the person diving one on your boat feel like crap. They are about to dive the thing you believe will kill them

 

[down4fun]

I would probably scale back my diving

I would scale back, and count my blessings that I found out about being at a higher-risk before something bad happened in a technical environment.

IMHO it's easy to give that reply when you aren't really having to decide. I think we all know people who have had DCS or some other event that had caused an MD to recommend they not not dive or not to the extreme that they are used to and yet they continue to dive. Call it denial, stupidity, hardheadedness or whatever, but it happens frequently.

 

[HowardE]

I think that a rebreather... Like ANY dive equipment is a tool. Sometimes the right tool for the job... Sometimes not necessarily.

I think the problem with rebreather diving is that costly mistakes can be had much easier than on OC scuba. More often than not... the reason people die is that they make a mistake either pre-dive or during the dive. Sometimes it's hard to say, "Wow Jack messed up... he was such a good diver I don't know how he could have done that" (especially for friends and family) but in most instances, it's not the rebreather that kills the diver.