Question CCR for recreational depths

[grantctobin]

My Kiss Sprit LTE cost $3825 when I bought it in 2015. Let's add $1000 for an integrated Shearwater (which I already had) and $600 for an 13cf O2 cylinder and 40CF dil/bailout tanks, 1st/2nd stage bailout regs. (all of which I had) Another $250 for O2 cells.

That is $5675 for a fully equipped CCR with a Wing, BOV (aka 2nd stage), tanks, O2reg, bailout 1st&2nd, 02 cells etc.

I challenge you get a full Open Circuit setup ready to dive for $567. That would be a BC, 80cf tank, 1st and two 2nd stages, dive computer. All brand new. I think you'd have a have a hard time buying all that even on Ebay in decent shape.

That would realistically cost a couple of thousand dollars. And a far cry from 10x less costly.

I think you need to check your prices almost a decade later... Kiss Spirit LTE CCR

 

[L13]

This is not how it works. Over how many dives? The cells and the whole cost of ownership of the unit is money too.

"Consumables" does not include cost of ownership. Solid state cells are a reality today, so no reason to assume cells will be a consumable in the future.

Whatever it cost in central US doesn't really matter (and I garantee it's not cheaper than OC there either).

Sorb from DGX to my door: $3.66/hr
Oxygen 3L 200 bar fill: $0.50/hr
Total consumables: $4.16/hr

OC consumables(shallow dive): ~$6.00/hr

For deep dives, add Dil for CCR, and double OC. CCR still wins on consumables.

And as I already mentioned, the price is not the only issue.

But consumable price is what you called "balonie".

The Poseidon/Explorer/Drager units go for pretty cheap online. People don't want them. The juice is not worth the squeeze.

History, not future possibilities.

EDIT:
"The way it is, is the way it always will be" makes as much sense now as it did when a cave man said it.

 

[CT-Rich]

Poseiden had this exact same thinking when then released their "recreational" CC unit... Didn't happen.
Mares/Revo had the exact same thinking when they released their "recreational SCR" again, didnt happen.

Pretty sure the era of OW recreational CCR/SCR isnt going to happen

Following this logic, the Bendomatic should have doomed the dive computer for eternity. In the 1980s they marketed the "butterly BC" which, as I recall, was marketed to photographers for models to wear would have doomed the back inflate BCDs. Electric vehicles were marketed back in the 1990s and failed.

That something has failed repeatedly in the past and has been retried actually doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. It means those trying it haven't got it right. When the right technology finds the right marketing, it will take off.

Saying cost is the driving factor may not

@CT-Rich
You're mixing stuff up. For practical reasons it makes sense to use a ccr for dives in trimix range deeper than 130' or 150' or so and for some cave dives. One reason is the increase in cost for He.
There is not practical advantage for using a rebreather on a 80' or whatever reef dive, especially not if you have to fly with that thing and have to find pricey sorb and pricey O2 and have to rent 3 tanks instead of one. If you want to do a longer dive at Nx depth you can use doubles.

Is the price of He the driving force? a lot of cave diving is about not silting up the cave and having air to go longer. How much does a pair of doubles weigh? I don't even consider doubles because they are disfunctionally heavy. Of the 11 divers on the boat mentioned earlier, how many of those divers were happy to have paid extra to not bring doubles on the boat. I currently dive a steel 120, just because it keeps me away from trying to sling doubles. It is lighter than a pair of AL 80s and extra lead.

For some divers that want to avoid the single use He market, CCR makes sense, but CCR is still less gear than bringing four tanks of Nitrox on a boat for three one hour dives and a bail out. Wireless Air integrate computers appealed to a niche group of divers. It has spread out of that little niche and divers that can afford it are buying it.

My latest computer has more capabilities than I really need, but I wanted it. Now that I have it, I wouldn't go back to a crappy puck computer. I like using it. It was twice what I could have bought and been fine with.

 

[Wibble]

Unless you are interested in discussing possible futures, there isn't much more for either of us to say.

Rather than CCR, which is damn complex, what about SCR?

Having taken my CCR to dive with pretty fish in the Canary Islands, I found it to be really expensive for flying with. Then there's the tank rentals (four, or five if diving deep), scrubber, oxygen, etc...

Looking at the Mares Horizon, it's interesting how much more simple that is. No oxygen cylinder for a start; just a single bailout / nitrox drive gas***. That would be trivial to get at a remote location.

The amount of scrubber used is also small as it uses the Revo's twin scrubber layout. It doesn't use the RMS (tempstick, scrubber monitor), but it does use a monitor for the amount of time the scrubber's been used.

It can be used with a second decompression gas mix cylinder for deco stops.

The price is half the price of a Revo.


Is this the technology that could be used in the future? I guess the Hollis "Stormtrooper" SCR was the same kind of thing.



*** What do we call drive gas? It's a nitrox mix and diluent in a single cylinder!

 

[berndo]

@L13
Yeah, I guess if we ignore all the actual cost of using a rebreather, it's cheaper than OC. Lol

 

[sprockjohnson]

No way is CCR cheaper than OC unless you're talking about deep trimix dives or very long runtime dives. Consumables, at least as of today, still include not just the o2 and scrubber material but also the galvanic cells, which sometimes have to be replaced ahead of schedule. Solid state might be a good option in the future but at 10x the cost per cell and you would realistically still need at least two.

Now, I love me some rebreather (I have four of them) but it's not the right tool for every dive. SCR is perhaps cheaper with just sorb and nitrox (such as is the case with both of my Dragers) but still not cheaper than OC since it is pretty much the same dive profile but requires scrubber material.

 

[berndo]

@CT-Rich
But why do you think virtually nobody bought a Dolphin or a Poseidon or any of the other rigs for rec diving?
Apparently a KISS Spirit was only 5 grand... I never see those anywhere in the wild. I'm not even sure I've ever seen a Spirit or a Poseidon at a dive site.

Why would you what a rebreather for rec diving anyways?

 

[L13]

@L13
Yeah, I guess if ignore all the actual cost of using a rebreather, it's cheaper than OC. Lol

Not ignoring, just properly categorizing. Marginal cost is different than amortized capital cost. Marginal cost is the cost with 1 more hour of diving.

Current state: CCR marginal cost is low, amortized capital cost is high.
Possible state: CCR marginal cost is the same or lower than now, amortized capital cost is reduced when volume sales increase by 10x - 100x, as people adopt it.

Will volume sales increase by 10x - 100x ? Maybe not. But per @Wibble 's post about his dive boat last saturday, things are trending that way. With further evolution and optimization of CCR's for usability, safety, and cost, it is not unreasonable to postulate that they might. The idea the CCR's are stuck in their current state, not so reasonable.

 

[Marie13]

@CT-Rich
But why do you think virtually nobody bought a Dolphin or a Poseidon or any of the other rigs for rec diving?
Apparently a KISS Spirit was only 5 grand... I never see those anywhere in the wild. I'm not even sure I've ever seen a Spirit or a Poseidon at a dive site.

Why would you what a rebreather for rec diving anyways?

I paid nearly $9500 for my Kiss Spirit last year. That includes the $700 I spent on a separate blinky HUD (I didn’t like the hardwired one offered) and about $300 for an extra 4 pin plug to be installed on the sensor head.

 

[L13]

No way is CCR cheaper than OC unless you're talking about deep trimix dives or very long runtime dives. Consumables, at least as of today, still include not just the o2 and scrubber material but also the galvanic cells, which sometimes have to be replaced ahead of schedule. Solid state might be a good option in the future but at 10x the cost per cell and you would realistically still need at least two.

We are talking about the future. Why would we discount solid state cells? Why would we assume something that is new will always have the same price it does now? And even if it stays 10x it is still a capital cost, not a marginal cost.