Question CCR for recreational depths

[Germie]

At home I almost never dive my ccr as the costs are really higher than a oc twinset fill where I can do 3 dives with. I talk now about the houselakes around me, max depth 15m, easy shallow dives.
As I am taking pictures, I don't have to worry at my gas consumption on such dives. I don't look at the spg in the first 90 minutes of a dive. I know I will have plenty of gas. With a ccr I still have to check the PO2.

I like my mCCR, but is really has more taskload than my eCCR during a dive. So a mCCR for an open water diver that takes pictures and likes to drink beer with friends after a diving day? All the disadvantages come then together.

 

[CT-Rich]

That's total balonie.


What do you think it costs to ship sorb and O2 storage tanks to dive destinations around the world?
The cost of sorb basically doubles just by shipping it from the UK to the US and shipping from Europe to the US is pretty cheap.


An SPG doesn't have to be build and broken down a cleaned after every dive day. It doesn't need cells that can fail, extra training and it doesn't get people killed.

We have have seen plenty cheaper 'rec' rebreathers. Atlantis, Dolphin, Ray, Voyager, Subatix, Explorer, cis-lunar, etc. and now that Mares/Revo unit that will also fail.
Even if they were cheaper, they're still not worth the hassle for rec dives. A Dolphin or Ray goes for well under a grand basically brand new online... and people still don't want them. It's not worth the effort on rec dives. There is nothing new here.

Screwing a reg onto a tank is easy, safe, relatively cheap and is all you need to look at fish while paddling aroud a reef in 60' of water. There is a reason you never see the poseidon or drager units in the wild.

You are assuming it will simply replace the current OC market. It won’t but you can see where it is coming from. It is showing up where it gives the greatest benefit. Technical divers that 30 years ago were diving deep air started using mixed air to go deeper safely. How many divers still deco dive on air only?

How many cave and wreck penetration dives were made twenty years ago on any version of rebreather? How does that compare with today? Do you think serious underwater photographers and videographers are still going spend $10 on a camera, $10k on travel and NOT pay for a CCR?

I don’t remembers seeing any CCR, or at least very few at local sites ten years ago. Now you see them pretty often. And these are shore sites shallower than 100’.

Dive shops and training agencies don’t make money from basic certs and the guys that do six dives a year and quit after two seasons. They make money from the guy that wants dive travel and buys two wetsuits and then decides he needs a drysuit, wants nitrox, wants a DC with integrated air, a couple of lights for night dives, fundies, twin set, let me go BP/W because my original BCD doesn’t have enough lift for my twins, throw in rescue and O2 for my boat. Prescription lenses for their mask and reel for laying line. Damn, what will I buy this year? When half the tech divers show up with CCR, the other half will get penis envy.

Every tech diver thinks they are a SEAL and no one wants to be looked on as a stroke. Need it or not people will buy them and shops will be happy to sell them, the training and the service. When Bonaire finds out there is a market for four hour dives, they will offer them, charge accordingly and import the infrastructure, just like they did for nitrox.

 

[grantctobin]

When Bonaire finds out there is a market for four hour dives, they will offer them, charge accordingly and import the infrastructure, just like they did for nitrox

That has existed for a period of time…

 

[L13]

Of course the price would drop. In complete agreement there. The issue is that a rebreather is way more complex than a reg + BCD + tank therefore it can never be as cheap as a rebreather.

Yes, a rebreather can never be as cheap as OC. But, with volume, it can approach 2x the price. Current market price for consumables(where I am, which is not a dive destination) is less than half the cost of OC and would likely drop some with volume as well.

But in general, most of your arguments are "it isn't that way in the present", my arguments are "but it could be that way in the future." We are talking past each other and repeating ourselves. I agree with you about what is.

But look how things have already change in the last five years:

Interesting diving this Saturday. 12 divers on a boat with 11 diving all sorts of rebreathers; only one diving with a twinset. The dive to a mere 28m/95ft.

Only five years ago that would have been a majority or most on open circuit.

Unless you are interested in discussing possible futures, there isn't much more for either of us to say.

 

[berndo]

@CT-Rich
You're mixing stuff up. For practical reasons it makes sense to use a ccr for dives in trimix range deeper than 130' or 150' or so and for some cave dives. One reason is the increase in cost for He.
There is not practical advantage for using a rebreather on a 80' or whatever reef dive, especially not if you have to fly with that thing and have to find pricey sorb and pricey O2 and have to rent 3 tanks instead of one. If you want to do a longer dive at Nx depth you can use doubles.

 

[rjack321]

You are assuming it will simply replace the current OC market. It won’t but you can see where it is coming from. It is showing up where it gives the greatest benefit. Technical divers that 30 years ago were diving deep air started using mixed air to go deeper safely. How many divers still deco dive on air only?

How many cave and wreck penetration dives were made twenty years ago on any version of rebreather? How does that compare with today? Do you think serious underwater photographers and videographers are still going spend $10 on a camera, $10k on travel and NOT pay for a CCR?

I don’t remembers seeing any CCR, or at least very few at local sites ten years ago. Now you see them pretty often. And these are shore sites shallower than 100’.

Dive shops and training agencies don’t make money from basic certs and the guys that do six dives a year and quit after two seasons. They make money from the guy that wants dive travel and buys two wetsuits and then decides he needs a drysuit, wants nitrox, wants a DC with integrated air, a couple of lights for night dives, fundies, twin set, let me go BP/W because my original BCD doesn’t have enough lift for my twins, throw in rescue and O2 for my boat. Prescription lenses for their mask and reel for laying line. Damn, what will I buy this year? When half the tech divers show up with CCR, the other half will get penis envy.

Every tech diver thinks they are a SEAL and no one wants to be looked on as a stroke. Need it or not people will buy them and shops will be happy to sell them, the training and the service. When Bonaire finds out there is a market for four hour dives, they will offer them, charge accordingly and import the infrastructure, just like they did for nitrox.

Poseiden had this exact same thinking when then released their "recreational" CC unit... Didn't happen.
Mares/Revo had the exact same thinking when they released their "recreational SCR" again, didnt happen.

Pretty sure the era of OW recreational CCR/SCR isnt going to happen

 

[L13]

Marginal cost per dive is less on a CCR.

That's total balonie.

Where I am at in central USA, far from any dive destinations, consumable cost for CCR is <$5/hr, and ~$6/hr for OC (shallow dives, ~$12/hr for medium depths).

What do you think it costs to ship sorb and O2 storage tanks to dive destinations around the world?
The cost of sorb basically doubles just by shipping it from the UK to the US and shipping from Europe to the US is pretty cheap.

Now? Or in a (possibly) high volume future?

 

[L13]

Poseiden had this exact same thinking when then released their "recreational" CC unit... Didn't happen.
Mares/Revo had the exact same thinking when they released their "recreational SCR" again, didnt happen.

Didn't happen ... yet.

Pretty sure the era of OW recreational CCR/SCR isnt going to happen

You may be right.

But there is nothing inherent in CCR that makes it impossible. See @Angelo Farina 's comments about Italy pre-1980, and @Wibble 's comment about his dive boat this weekend compared to 5 years ago.

I don't know how soon it will be. I don't know how many companies will loose money thinking "now is the time", but I'm pretty sure it will happen eventually.

 

[berndo]

Where I am at in central USA, far from any dive destinations, consumable cost for CCR is <$5/hr, and ~$6/hr for OC (shallow dives, ~$12/hr for medium depths).

This is not how it works. Over how many dives? The cells and the whole cost of ownership of the unit is money too.
Whatever it cost in central US doesn't really matter (and I garantee it's not cheaper than OC there either). Diving in vacation destinations it what matters to mainstream scuba. Try to ship stuff to the hinterlands of Egypt or some island without a major port.

And as I already mentioned, the price is not the only issue. The Poseidon/Explorer/Drager units go for pretty cheap online. People don't want them. The juice is not worth the squeeze.

 

[davehicks]

Doesn't take much neck sticking to say CCR is 10x right now.

The question is it inherently that way, or just a result of maturity of the product and low volumes.

Take just one example: the Triton DSV is €300. There is nothing about it that makes it more than €20 if made in large volumes. Just the mushroom valves are €26.25 each, in high volume they would be less than €1.

All your other points are valid NOW. But they are not inherently true for the future. Rebreathers are evolving. They are become simpler and safer to dive with each generation. As they become more wide spread, the volumes are going up and the prices are going down.

My Kiss Sprit LTE cost $3825 when I bought it in 2015. Let's add $1000 for an integrated Shearwater (which I already had) and $600 for an 13cf O2 cylinder and 40CF dil/bailout tanks, 1st/2nd stage bailout regs. (all of which I had) Another $250 for O2 cells.

That is $5675 for a fully equipped CCR with a Wing, BOV (aka 2nd stage), tanks, O2reg, bailout 1st&2nd, 02 cells etc.

I challenge you get a full Open Circuit setup ready to dive for $567. That would be a BC, 80cf tank, 1st and two 2nd stages, dive computer. All brand new. I think you'd have a have a hard time buying all that even on Ebay in decent shape.

That would realistically cost a couple of thousand dollars. And a far cry from 10x less costly.