CCR cave crossovers
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You say, “shouldn’t have to calculate” while calculating , mental math counts as calculating. I doubt the example given was chosen arbitrarily given the numbers. FWIW I think 1 or 2 sig figs is good enough assuming you err on the side of caution.
I kinda have a hard time buying that, that many cave divers don't undertand how to calculate BO gas. Do you ask them how they usually do it? I mean, even as a OC cave diver you would have a pretty good idea how far an 80 will get you. At least on your home turf you would know.
That's actually why I posted the poll. I've asked around and people told me it was just talking about BO plan and a couple of fun dives. A friend told he I could just read up on BO planning on the internet and get the same information he got in class.
Makes sense too me but doesn't seem to be the case. I see more an more newish cave divers on CCRs in France and people doing cave class on CCR. I reckon those classes are not tailored to long or deep diving.
By 'worth it' I meant if they actually learned something new, not about justifying cost.
You mean it depends on the agency if people know it at all or that different agencies calculate BO differently?
So what do you think should be in a crossover that's not already been covered in CCR and in cave class? I guess my question is, what's new other than BO planning (even though BO planning shouldn't be new either)?
I agree that some divers need a course and others don't. A lot can be learned by just doing it. BUt not every diver can do that.
I know divers with a CCR cave card that are only doing dives that can be done on oc level. No problem, they have fun and do it safe. There are also divers with a ccr cave card that do longer and deeper dives and don't know what they have to do in case of a problem. But they have a cert and sometimes never did a crossover, but did a complete course.
I have dived all over the world an there are for sure a lot of regional differences, but that differences are not that big that you cannot dive in Europe if you learned cave diving in Asia, or Mexico. I started in Thailand, then went to mines and caves in Europe, went to Mexico and Florida without any problem.
I did my ccr cave instructor course with Tom Mount in Florida without ever been in Florida and without ever been diving in high flow caves. Was no problem. But some of the differences are for example the idea of sidemount bailout or not. In europe, you don't see that. In Florida most divers do. I never dived with sidemount bailout with a backmount rebreather before I went to Florida. The bulky bailouts, not streamlined are normal in Europe and wow, the divers don't die more often than in other countries. So is this wrong? Sharable bailouts? If you can do the dive with an alu80, use the alu80 or use 2 times alu40? Just some questions where not a right or false answer can be given, but you can think about it and must know advantages and disadvantages.
But what works there sometimes doesn't work in other countries. And what about the 1 arrow jump, 2 arrows jumps, team cookies, individual cookies, etc protocols for navigation? Not CCR, but every region in the world uses their own things.
The book from Daniel Hutnan from IANTD CZ about cavediving gives a good idea about the differences between regions.
The book 'Manuel de technique de plongee souterraine' from Frank Vaseur is a good book about CCR cave diving, INCLUDING Solo cavediving with CCR's. This is never teached in courses. Some people think you must never dive solo in caves or solo on ccr. But it is quite normal in Europe and also I do that.
If I teach, I talk also about the differences in regions that I have seen. But to dive all over the world is not mandatory to become a cave instructor. Does this mean that instructors who only dove in Europe are worser than the ones that went to caves all over the world? I think it is good to know the differences, but it is not needed to be a good instructor. Also cave divers that do dry caving do it different than the ones that only do diving in caves.
Conclusion: to say that a ccr cave crossover is always needed, no, I don't agree. But I don't say that it is useless. Same with a sidemount course, some can do it theirselves, others can do it better with an instructor.
Bad instructors could be good instructors in the past. Same with divers. Also bad divers can improve, with or without instructor. Judging other divers is easy and done a lot.
But before you judge, ask the question: is it unsafe or does the diver damage the environment? If a yes can be answered, then you can talk about, or discuss it. But if the answer is no, what is the problem? For example sidemount in open water. If cylinders are not in trim, it is no sidemount, but is this dangerous or will this damage things? probably not. You can talk to the diver to discuss friendly, but to judge? No, first ask things.
I had such a thing in the past in Mexico. In the cavernzone, we practised jumps and someone did it wrong. But it was the cavernzone, so I took a picture of it and we let this lay between dives to discuss it. An other instructor saw that and came to us and did not talk friendly, where do you rent tanks? Where do you stay? And really unfriendly. I knew what he wanted to do after that, so I decided that we don't talk any english, spanish, german or other languages. So we didn't understand him. Another diver asked us if we made that nice jump in the cavernzone. Yes, we did, to practise. Then we had a nice talk about it and not to judge. I was not teaching then, but was with some divers that hadn't been in caves for 4 years, so forgot some things. The first dive was a practise dive, so nothing special or difficult.
So also before you start judging divers behind their backs, ask them and be friendly. I really hate talking behind backs without the victim get the word to explain why he did this. Maybe the diver does not know, maybe there is a reason, etc. And if you see things you don't do yourself, maybe others learned it different, but ask yourself the question is it bad or wrong?
I know divers with a CCR cave card that are only doing dives that can be done on oc level. No problem, they have fun and do it safe. There are also divers with a ccr cave card that do longer and deeper dives and don't know what they have to do in case of a problem. But they have a cert and sometimes never did a crossover, but did a complete course.
I have dived all over the world an there are for sure a lot of regional differences, but that differences are not that big that you cannot dive in Europe if you learned cave diving in Asia, or Mexico. I started in Thailand, then went to mines and caves in Europe, went to Mexico and Florida without any problem.
I did my ccr cave instructor course with Tom Mount in Florida without ever been in Florida and without ever been diving in high flow caves. Was no problem. But some of the differences are for example the idea of sidemount bailout or not. In europe, you don't see that. In Florida most divers do. I never dived with sidemount bailout with a backmount rebreather before I went to Florida. The bulky bailouts, not streamlined are normal in Europe and wow, the divers don't die more often than in other countries. So is this wrong? Sharable bailouts? If you can do the dive with an alu80, use the alu80 or use 2 times alu40? Just some questions where not a right or false answer can be given, but you can think about it and must know advantages and disadvantages.
But what works there sometimes doesn't work in other countries. And what about the 1 arrow jump, 2 arrows jumps, team cookies, individual cookies, etc protocols for navigation? Not CCR, but every region in the world uses their own things.
The book from Daniel Hutnan from IANTD CZ about cavediving gives a good idea about the differences between regions.
The book 'Manuel de technique de plongee souterraine' from Frank Vaseur is a good book about CCR cave diving, INCLUDING Solo cavediving with CCR's. This is never teached in courses. Some people think you must never dive solo in caves or solo on ccr. But it is quite normal in Europe and also I do that.
If I teach, I talk also about the differences in regions that I have seen. But to dive all over the world is not mandatory to become a cave instructor. Does this mean that instructors who only dove in Europe are worser than the ones that went to caves all over the world? I think it is good to know the differences, but it is not needed to be a good instructor. Also cave divers that do dry caving do it different than the ones that only do diving in caves.
Conclusion: to say that a ccr cave crossover is always needed, no, I don't agree. But I don't say that it is useless. Same with a sidemount course, some can do it theirselves, others can do it better with an instructor.
Bad instructors could be good instructors in the past. Same with divers. Also bad divers can improve, with or without instructor. Judging other divers is easy and done a lot.
But before you judge, ask the question: is it unsafe or does the diver damage the environment? If a yes can be answered, then you can talk about, or discuss it. But if the answer is no, what is the problem? For example sidemount in open water. If cylinders are not in trim, it is no sidemount, but is this dangerous or will this damage things? probably not. You can talk to the diver to discuss friendly, but to judge? No, first ask things.
I had such a thing in the past in Mexico. In the cavernzone, we practised jumps and someone did it wrong. But it was the cavernzone, so I took a picture of it and we let this lay between dives to discuss it. An other instructor saw that and came to us and did not talk friendly, where do you rent tanks? Where do you stay? And really unfriendly. I knew what he wanted to do after that, so I decided that we don't talk any english, spanish, german or other languages. So we didn't understand him. Another diver asked us if we made that nice jump in the cavernzone. Yes, we did, to practise. Then we had a nice talk about it and not to judge. I was not teaching then, but was with some divers that hadn't been in caves for 4 years, so forgot some things. The first dive was a practise dive, so nothing special or difficult.
So also before you start judging divers behind their backs, ask them and be friendly. I really hate talking behind backs without the victim get the word to explain why he did this. Maybe the diver does not know, maybe there is a reason, etc. And if you see things you don't do yourself, maybe others learned it different, but ask yourself the question is it bad or wrong?
No no. I was already OC cave instructor for some years. This means you have done and teached courses and been evaluated by 2 IT's. Did that with 2 IT's in Europe in several trips. Also I was already ccr instructor, this with other IT's. And you needed to have a least X experience in teaching courses. I decided to do the ccr cave instructor course in Florida as I haven't been there before and I wanted to see how it all works there. Did it there with Tom on paper and also 2 IT's. Did dive with Tom, and then the rest with other It's, but the name on my cert is Tom. I believe I was his last student. He was old, but could tell a lot about his experiences in earlier times. How it started, what went wrong, etc. And I can tell you, it was not a holiday, it was hard working. But I liked it. All was done according to standards. Also I had to show my ccr skills again and had to do some reviews.
But your way you wrote the question does me think about a person who has been banned here. Haha.
Unfortunaty this doesn't seem to mean much. There was a cave instructor course in Italy a few years ago were a student died and instructor still passed. I think that was with IANTD too.
I find it a rather odd that an instructor would nonchalantly say 'some divers need a course and others don't'. Sounds like there is not much to it then, if I can just teach myself.
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