Cavern/Intro to cave instructor

[Dive-aholic]

We're planning a trip to Florida sometime in May or June to begin our venture into the cave diving world. We'll probably do a similar trip next year to continue it. We're looking for suggestions on instructors. I've already done some research, but being in Arizona, it's kind of difficult to truly assess things. Specifically, we want someone who will spend the 4 days teaching us. We want to do this during the week, not over 2 weekends. We want little to no classroom time. Yeah, there's stuff to talk about, but we can do that next to the water. In other words, theory, dry run, dive, theory, dry run, dive. We don't want to spend 6 hours in a classroom talking about this stuff. We want someone who cave dives for fun, not just teaching, and someone who has a fair amount of experience cave diving.

Yeah, I know, talk to the instructor. Well, honestly, there are way too many out there to call every single one. So, I'd like a smaller list to start out with. I'll call the instructors suggested here and talk to them. If none of them work out (which I doubt will be the case), then I'll check out the rest. So, basically, I'm looking for names, numbers if you have them, and agency (just so I can look up some of their background before calling), and their website if they have one. If you don't know if they meet all of our desires, give me the name anyway, I can always ask.

BTW, I'm also going to post this in the Cave Diving subforum, so you only need to respond to one of the threads. I'm posting here too because we are definitely going to do this in Florida.

 

[simbrooks]

Well a couple of things to say, i hear many good things about a few instructors around this area. I took mine with GDI (Rick), his website is on his profile page, he'll probably be able to schedule you during the week quite easily. He's TDI/NACD full cave, but i guarantee, he will take his time and make sure you are up to standard before issuing a card - which will take some class time, dry run time and possibly a good few more than the minimum number of dives. I dont know of any cave instructors (worth their standard) that would hurry you through without a little discussion and work beforehand - its part of the cave mentality to go slowly, build up experience and such.

There are other instructors i know of, but many are only running weekend courses, or else you hit somewhere like Ginnie and they run courses all the time too - although i have only seen them conducted, never been in one. How many of you are there who want to do the classes? Dont you have blue holes/caves/springs around AZ didnt i read somewhere? Cant recall names, but i am not well versed in all the other states!!

 

[Rick Murchison]

We want little to no classroom time. Yeah, there's stuff to talk about, but we can do that next to the water. In other words, theory, dry run, dive, theory, dry run, dive. We don't want to spend 6 hours in a classroom talking about this stuff. We want someone who cave dives for fun...

Hmmm... I see from your profile that you are a DM...
one of the tenets of technical diving done right is that it takes (usually as a minimum) twice as long to plan a dive as it does to make the dive. And sometimes a whole lot longer than that. Indeed, sometimes we have several planning sessions over several months before a dive. Perhaps I'm mis-reading you here, but I am concerned that you may have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of caving, and the "classroom" time it takes to do it right (not necessarily DIR, but right).
Tell me I'm wrong...
Rick

 

[wscdive]

Im with rick on this one. I was an instructor before i went for my cave instruction and i'll be the first to tell you that cave diving is different. The diving mechanics are only a part of the equation.(I can teach almost anyone good bouyancy) The reason for the class time is to explain and understand the mental part of cave diving along with the procedures. In open water most incidents are short duration(ooa, panic,equipment problem etc) and the short answer to most of them is to safely surface. In a cave there is no surface. All contingencies and procedures must be overlearned. My instructors covered just about anything that could happen in a cave and it took time. Imagine being 1200 feet from an opening when you realize that maybe you should have spent more time in class. I know its a long trip to make to spend time in class, but remember thats what you are there for. Good luck its a great course!!

 

[Dive-aholic]

Rick, you're wrong. You misread me. My fault though. I should've explained it better.

When I stated I want little to no classroom time, I meant indoors. What I'm looking for is doing all the theoretical and planning stuff at the dive site. When we did our wreck class, we spent 2 long days on site discussing theory, planning our dives, and doing dry runs in between diving. I've taken "classroom" classes and "dive site" classes and I've spent a lot more time and gotten a lot more from the "dive site" classes. I just don't want to spend 3 days sitting in a classroom and then going out to the dive site and trying to remember everything we covered in class. I think it works better by integrating the didactic with the practical. I'm looking for a schedule that goes something like this:

2-3 hours talking about the concepts and the dive at a picnic table next to the water, 30-45 minute dive using thee concepts, debrief dive, 2-3 hours talking about more concepts and the dive, 30-45 minute dive using the concepts, debrief dive, etc.

In other words, let's talk about the theory and then demonstrate it right afterwards. Our wreck instructor had a dry erase board set up in front of a picnic table and we held class 100' from the water. We did line drills on land. Then we splashed and practiced them underwater. Everything was fresh in our minds when we did the dives. We don't want to hurry through the course, which has been our experience with the "classroom" courses we've had. We want to make sure we are trained for what we want to do. Also, I said 4 days because that seems to be the standard amount of time to complete cavern and intro to cave. If we have to add some days and do some extra dives - GREAT! - the more dives the better. Then we want to go dive a bunch and practice what we learn before we move onto full cave. We don't want to just get issued a card. We could care less about the card (other than needing it some places just to dive them). We want the training, top of the line training. Does that make sense?

Simon, there's a dive site called the Blue Hole in NM, but it's only about 20' deep and not a cave, just a natural spring that fed by a small, very small, hole. Arizona is very dry. Most of the lakes here are man made. If there are caves/caverns here, I haven't heard about them...and no one teaches it. Besides, the viz in the lakes around here would make a cavern 30' below the surface a cave dive because the surface light won't penetrate through the muck. So, probably not too wise to find them...yet. It would be too tempting if I knew where they were. I know better than to look for them...yet.

I've also heard that there are 5 divable caves in SE AZ (where I'm at), but they are dry caves with bodies of water in them. There's a hike from the entrance to the water. I have read about one being dived a few times, but I don't think they've explored it very much. The majority of divers around here are warm water divers. This can be frustrating! Besides, we believe in training with experts. We did wreck training in NJ (that's where I'm originally from, still have family there). Florida seems to be the place to do cave diving in the US, so we want to train there. Besides, we have family there, too. There are 2 of us - my wife and me - that want to do this training.

I hope this clears some things up. Again, it's not about the card. We want top quality training and our experience has been that it's more likely next to the water than inside a building. Also, thanks for the concern. I'm glad to see responses like this.

Rob

 

[simbrooks]

Rob, i think i better understand your concept of training now, it sounded like you wanted to skip any theory, but i agree some instruction at the site is usually a better way to do it. However i would urge you to get a copy of each of the main NSS-CDS books: "Blueprint for Survival", "Cavern Diver Manual", "Cave Diving Communication", and "Cave Diving Manual" - you can find them at most places around here - in cave country, probably on Amazon and certainly at the NSS-CDS online store and such places. They should help get you in the mindset of what goes on, instruction after that isnt completely new or different, you might pick up a bunch still after all that reading (i have only just finished the cave diving manual about a month after i did my intro class). I understand you arent after collecting the cards beyond access and learning new skills, but again maybe i am reading it wrongly, its not wise to go from intro to full cave too quickly, even the cavern/intro combo classes are often frowned upon. I have done a bunch of cavern dives, quite a few between taking that and intro to cave, but i intend to do around 100 cave dives before going to apprentice or full cave (not to mention the adv nitrox/deco course on the way), that should be a good year or so from now, but intro gives me enough to do the simple acts of cave diving - no complex navigation (jumps or gaps, traverses or circuits - only following mainline), no huge penetrations (1/6ths rule) and of course a myriad of other intro buddies!.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Rick, you're wrong. You misread me. My fault though. I should've explained it better.

Good. I'm greatly relieved. Outdoor classrooms are just fine.
Happy caving...
Rick

 

[Dive-aholic]

Rob, i think i better understand your concept of training now, it sounded like you wanted to skip any theory, but i agree some instruction at the site is usually a better way to do it. However i would urge you to get a copy of each of the main NSS-CDS books: "Blueprint for Survival", "Cavern Diver Manual", "Cave Diving Communication", and "Cave Diving Manual" - you can find them at most places around here - in cave country, probably on Amazon and certainly at the NSS-CDS online store and such places. They should help get you in the mindset of what goes on, instruction after that isnt completely new or different, you might pick up a bunch still after all that reading (i have only just finished the cave diving manual about a month after i did my intro class). I understand you arent after collecting the cards beyond access and learning new skills, but again maybe i am reading it wrongly, its not wise to go from intro to full cave too quickly, even the cavern/intro combo classes are often frowned upon. I have done a bunch of cavern dives, quite a few between taking that and intro to cave, but i intend to do around 100 cave dives before going to apprentice or full cave (not to mention the adv nitrox/deco course on the way), that should be a good year or so from now, but intro gives me enough to do the simple acts of cave diving - no complex navigation (jumps or gaps, traverses or circuits - only following mainline), no huge penetrations (1/6ths rule) and of course a myriad of other intro buddies!.

Simon, already have Blueprint. Haven't heard of the other books, but I'll look for them. As for the timeline, we're just looking at a general timeline, nothing hardset right now. We dive wrecks (different environment, but still overhead) with basic penetration. We were in Florida 3 months ago and dove King Spring, Blue Spring, and Rainbow River. Not a whole lot of cavern dives, but enough for the bug to have bitten us. We dive as often as we can, and a few trips to Florida a year is not unreasonable for us, especially since we have family there. So we can get the experience pretty quickly. I stated a year because I thought that was a fair minimum amount of time to look at. But if it takes a few years to get ready for apprentice and full cave, no problem. We're not in a hurry to go deep and make huge penetrations. In fact, we had thought about doing the cavern course 3 months ago, but after talking to a couple of shops we thought it would be too much time involvement for us on that trip. So we put it off. The timeline will be revised as we learn more about cavern/cave diving. Thanks for your input and advice. I do appreciate it and will be giving GDI a call this month to talk to him about the course.

Rob