Cavern class

[TSandM]

I think Jim was pointing out that there a few sites where you are permitted to dive in a cavern with an OW cert -- the Ballroom at Ginnie Springs being one of them. Why would you want to do that? Well, perhaps if you wanted to see what a cavern was like, but really didn't expect to want to dive in them, and did not immediately see value to you as a diver in a cavern class.

Many, many people do the cenote tours in Mexico who have no intention at all of diving caverns or caves at any other time, and who have no interest in a class, even though such a class might result in improvements in their diving that would carry over into all of their other diving.

 

[Max Speed]

Capt jim wyatt
are you saying we can come down to northern florida and dive the caverns of ginnie spring and the blue grotto without having cavern or cave cert?
I'm sure this is not true. Why would we want to that?

You will find Ginnie Springs perfectly enjoyable without Cavern or Cave Training. You would have to work really hard to get stuck in the Ballroom and the silty twisty parts are gated off. In the ear and the eye you won't get more than a few feet in without confronting the reaper signs. You could only blame yourself if you went past the signs and got into trouble. It is very enjoyable in those entry areas before you get to the signs.

The "crack" entry (not sure of the name) is a different matter. While I enjoyed being in there and looking up at the sky and trees I wouldn't have tried to take off my tank and squeeze any further in even though you would still technically be in the light zone. I just don't trust my skills as "gumby" while pushing my tank and BCD. (Maybe if I had a lighter lunch...)

In Missouri (during winter) you can dive down to about 80' in Bennett Springs on an OW card. You'll still be in the light zone when you find you can't get any further in against the outflow so it's pretty foolproof and you can watch the gravel being tossed at you in the popcorn room. Your exit is about a 45 degree slope behind you with no restrictions and you'd be able to get out even if you lost your mask and fins. A pony or a reliable buddy is important unless you're better than I am at breath holding. (You'd still make it out but it would be challenging.)

Silting and loss of viz is not a problem at any of the above locations if you stay within the stated limits.

 

[Dive-aholic]

At the same time there are OW divers without any overhead training that have panicked at Ginnie. I've even heard of an OW diver dying in that cavern. While probably hundreds of OW divers do dives at Ginnie every year, it is still an overhead environment and still entails the risks of one.

 

[giles45shop]

Capt jim wyatt
are you saying we can come down to northern florida and dive the caverns of ginnie spring and the blue grotto without having cavern or cave cert?
I'm sure this is not true. Why would we want to that?

As Jim said, there are multiple locations in NFL where you can dive in a cavern-like environment without having a specific cavern card. Ginnie Springs Ballroom, Blue Grotto, Devils Den and Paradise Springs are some of the most popular commercial sites.

Many thousands of OW divers dive in them yearly, without any issues, but they are definitely an overhead type environment and things can happen.

I think your idea of taking a cavern class is a great idea, it will definitely give you some new skills that will be helpful in any diving environment, even if you do not decide to go any further in cave training. You will also get the exposure to the cavern/cave environment to see if it's something you would enjoy and may want to pursue further (or not).

I will say that the cavern cert is kind of a "tease", as you will likely soon realize that the cavern zone in most caves is fairly small and if you get bitten by the cave bug it won't be long until you want to pursue further training so you can see what's beyond the cavern zone.

John

 

[DA Aquamaster]

IMO, very few divers who do combo courses are ready for intro level dives after. They need time in the cavern to gain experience and have a few " oh s#@t " moments to learn from. Every diver doesnt, but most do. If a diver is too good to go and enjoy a cavern dive they might be doing this for the wrong reason anyway.

I agree that a newly trained intro diver will want to start off slow. For a newly minted Cavern/Intro diver diving on their own outside of class for the first time, a dive to the lips at Ginne or to Pothole at Peacock is probably a big enough dive.

However, I'd prefer to have an Intro diver swimming to the lips or to pothole than have a cavern diver bored with his or her limits decide to go there.

 

[Tegg]

However, I'd prefer to have an Intro diver swimming to the lips or to pothole than have a cavern diver bored with his or her limits decide to go there.

What about an intro diver bored with his limits that tries to swim the Henkle? Shouldn't the students just do an 8-9 day full cave course and be a wham-bam full cave diver? This way they don't get bored and kill themselves... *rolleyes*

Caverns are not boring and there is plenty to see and explore in the cavern zone if the instructor does their job...

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

What about an intro diver bored with his limits that tries to swim the Henkle?

Caverns are not boring and there is plenty to see and explore in the cavern zone if the instructor does their job...

Conversely, what about a cave diver who gets bored and does a 270 air dive at Eagles' Nest because he is not helium qualified? This list can go on & on....

Even when instructors do their jobs students do not always pay attention. Look at what happened @ Waynes' World, the Little River scooter incident/fatality. The list is long too.

People need to take some "Personal Responsibility" when making decisions about their diving. Throwing blame around to instructors is easy & often times fun. Placing responsibility on people to NOT do what they have been told is beyond their training is priceless, and a life saving move.

 

[mselenaous]

My wife and i are thinking about taking the cavern class, so we can come down to northern florida to enjoy the springs. I'm guessing we would get more enjoyable diving the caverns vs just diving the o/w of the springs. Can anyone head us to a good place to take a cavern class? We donot want to go all the way to full-cave. We would like to get some more training on overhead environment. Just looking for some feedback?

Lots of great feedback you've gotten here.

Although there are several springs/caverns that can be dove by open water divers, it is still a good idea to have some additional training before entering any overhead environment.

The skills you gain in a cavern class are applicable to all levels of diving and the class will give you a taste of that environment to decide whether you wish to pursue it or not.

After all these years of teaching OW courses, I am slowly working on my claustrophobia issues and taking a cavern class to 1) tweek my skills with a highly respected cave instructor and 2) decide if I want to go further into cave diving in the future. Just because I teach diving for a living doesn't mean I've learned all there is to know about diving and to the contrary, I realize how much I don't know. I am also not a fan of taking alot of classes back-to-back without some practice time in between so the first set of skills sinks in before tackeling the next level of skills. Yes, I've done that and not gotten as much out of each class as I could have, had I solidified my skillsets in between classes.

I invite you to join us for the Spring Megadive at Ginnie Springs where you'll meet oodles of divers of all levels. http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/tr...ools-april-megadive-april-1st-3rd-2011-a.html

I am still looking for class buddies for that cavern class with Capt Jim on April 1st if you want to join us, it's not too late. http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/tr...639-megadive-april-1-2-2011-cavern-class.html

Or attend a Springfest at Vortex Springs.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/tr...springfest-iv-2011-th-apr-28-sun-may-1-a.html

Folks come from all over to participate in both of these popular Scubaboard events which have become regularly scheduled events every April and every October.

 

[Qnape]

The cavern course I took a year ago has by far and away had more influence on my diving than any other single course, including rescue. The course has led me to significantly modify my OW gear set-up and style. We travel to Mexico frequently, and I took the course in the cenotes as my first dives there. I'm returning to the area in June to apply what I've learned, but don't have a particular interest in progressing to cave at this time. If the "cave-bug" bites, I don't feel any particular temptation to take what I learned and push the limit - but then if I felt this way I would have dived the cenotes on a guided tour as OW and not taken the course. I would have missed a lot that has certainly changed the way I dive in general.

Also, the course may vary significantly depending on the instructor. I searched for a rigorous course and instructor; our course was 3 full days in the cenotes; 6 dives and lots of pleasant "classroom time" outside in the shade.

My daughter was ready to kill me as we used 3 days, 9 - 5 of her vacation and tanning time for the course. She complained - but I see the improvement in her OW diving as well.

 

[Crush]

...He had bought cave gear, lights, reels etc on the advice of someone else. Traveled down here for the cavern/basic cave class. He made it through cavern, barely. He knew after that he did not want to go any further with this training.

He did leave with a lot of knowledge about cave diving, the dangers of cave diving and will, because of this training be able to tell folks to stay out of the caves unless trained.

He also carries with him for the rest of his life additional skills such as anti-silting techniques, reel running and has been exposed to increased task loading.

Cave divers know of the potential perils of cave diving and will recommend thorough cave training. However, not everyone who takes a cavern course intends to become a cave diver. Some do it for the experience and to improve their skills. A full cave course is not required if you never plan to cave dive.

In my case I find myself near caves once per year. I completed a cavern course but am under no illusion that after an 11 month absence I can grab my reels and head into a cavern. I learned many skills in my cavern course - like a previous poster, it had a profound impact on my diving. Had I been forced to do full-cave or nothing I would have had to choose "nothing" since the gear investment would have been prohibitive.