cave trip

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Thanks for all of the advice guys. My instructor did
say I could dive with him but his schedule is always
pretty full.

Ask him to let you dive with him when he has other students - it is a good way to get in the water and do some dives under your belt especially if it has ben a while since you have made any cave dives.

 

[karstdvr]

I would be careful when buddying up with an instructor who is teaching a class. His focus of his attention is on his students.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I would be careful when buddying up with an instructor who is teaching a class. His focus of his attention is on his students.

I would be more careful buddying up with just any Joe you meet in the parking lot at Ginnie or Cave Excursions, or one of these internet forums.

When I have already certified cave divers dive with me while teaching I make them a part of the team that I am instructing and evaluating. There are several reasons why this is safe and why this is good for the students under instruction as well as the certified cave diver.

That being said, in my case I disagree with Kellys' comments that the focus is on the students, rather the focus is on the team. All instructors are not alike and YMMV.

Ask your instructor if you can dive with him while he is teaching and be a part of the team. A good instructor will gladly accept you on that team if he certified you.

The only time that will not suit me to do this would be if I already had a 3 man team under instruction, or if you as the certified cave diver have not been cave diving in over 3-6 months.

 

[karstdvr]

I would be more careful buddying up with just any Joe you meet in the parking lot at Ginnie or Cave Excursions, or one of these internet forums.

When I have already certified cave divers dive with me while teaching I make them a part of the team that I am instructing and evaluating. There are several reasons why this is safe and why this is good for the students under instruction as well as the certified cave diver.

That being said, in my case I disagree with Kellys' comments that the focus is on the students, rather the focus is on the team. All instructors are not alike and YMMV.

Ask your instructor if you can dive with him while he is teaching and be a part of the team. A good instructor will gladly accept you on that team if he certified you.

The only time that will not suit me to do this would be if I already had a 3 man team under instruction, or if you as the certified cave diver have not been cave diving in over 3-6 months.

Your method of having the extra person part of the team is ideal,and I should have clarified my comments better,because that isn't what I was referencing. I know you extend mentoring to your students after class,and I commend you on that. What I am referring to, and have seen on multiple occassions,is a cave diver who tags along with an instructor and his class,and lurks in the shadows. In this scenario the extra team member is out of sight of the instructor who is attending to his students.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

What I am referring to, and have seen on multiple occassions,is a cave diver who tags along with an instructor and his class,and lurks in the shadows. In this scenario the extra team member is out of sight of the instructor who is attending to his students.

That method of joining a dive to gain experience is certainly less than ideal. I would use this method only for experienced divers who are or are about to become instructor candidates so they can observe the team and learn how to better critique other divers.

As Kelly suggested - joining a dive where you will not be part of a team and just observing from the dark is not your safest, or preferred option, particularly if you are new and only have a few (less than 100) cave dives under your belt.

Mentoring divers, especially cave divers is a very important responsibility that I feel cave instructors should have as part of their program.

Jumping in and being a part of a team under instruction will help you hone the skills that you learned in your cave classes, if you make mistakes or are inefficient there is someone there trained to observe and tell you to help you be a better diver.

If you join a team under instruction perform as you should then the team you are with is left to make their own mistakes, if you make a mistake then that team will learn from your mistake and be better off for it.

From that analysis I came to the conclusion long ago that having former students in my classes is a win-win for everyone involved.

I believe that if you approach your (or any other) cave instructor and ask him/her to participate in this manner they will be happy to let you, so long as there is space on the team.

One caveat to the above would be for the cave diver I did not train and have never dived with. I would be reluctant to let that cave diver join an under instruction team doing complex navigation dives. I would want to see this cave diver in the cave before I allowed him/her to undertake this type dive with me and my under instruction team.

 

[karstdvr]

That method of joining a dive to gain experience is certainly less than ideal. I would use this method only for experienced divers who are or are about to become instructor candidates so they can observe the team and learn how to better critique other divers.

As Kelly suggested - joining a dive where you will not be part of a team and just observing from the dark is not your safest, or preferred option, particularly if you are new and only have a few (less than 100) cave dives under your belt.

Mentoring divers, especially cave divers is a very important responsibility that I feel cave instructors should have as part of their program.

Jumping in and being a part of a team under instruction will help you hone the skills that you learned in your cave classes, if you make mistakes or are inefficient there is someone there trained to observe and tell you to help you be a better diver.

If you join a team under instruction perform as you should then the team you are with is left to make their own mistakes, if you make a mistake then that team will learn from your mistake and be better off for it.

From that analysis I came to the conclusion long ago that having former students in my classes is a win-win for everyone involved.

I believe that if you approach your (or any other) cave instructor and ask him/her to participate in this manner they will be happy to let you, so long as there is space on the team.

One caveat to the above would be for the cave diver I did not train and have never dived with. I would be reluctant to let that cave diver join an under instruction team doing complex navigation dives. I would want to see this cave diver in the cave before I allowed him/her to undertake this type dive with me and my under instruction team.

Good points Jim. There once was a time that many instructors would teach you,but you wouldn't get a card until quite a few dives were completed in the manner you described. Also,before the internet,mentoring was very important,and I appreciate the mentors I had during my formative time after completing full cave,they were never afraid to tell me no,and I didn't argue.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Also,before the internet,mentoring was very important,and I appreciate the mentors I had during my formative time after completing full cave,they were never afraid to tell me no,and I didn't argue.

I did close to 50 cave dives before I was handed a cave certification card. But that was the attitude back in 1973 when I statrted cave diving as a teen-ager.

Now many "divers" are being mentored over the internet, using a keyboard, and being mentored by guys & gals with 100 internet posts for every dive logged.

Students should demand better from their instructors. Students should rely on cyber-divers internet advice for diving as much as they would rely on cyber-doctors to prescribe medication for their ailments.

 

[Rich Courtney]

Now many "divers" are being mentored over the internet, using a keyboard, and being mentored by guys & gals with 100 internet posts for every dive logged.

Students should demand better from their instructors. Students should rely on cyber-divers internet advice for diving as much as they would rely on cyber-doctors to prescribe medication for their ailments.

Beautifully put, Jim and I couldn't agree with you more....

Safe diving,

Rich

 

[H2Andy]

if only things were black and white, cut and dried, right and wrong

if only there were no greys in the world

if only instructors knew what they were doing. if only internet advice was always wrong and deadly.

if only ....

i have gotten tremendous advice on this board over the last two years.

i have also gotten awesome training from good instructors over the last two years.

one is not a substitute for the other. it's not either or. they both compliment your learning.

it's somewhat simplistic to think you can only have one or the other, and that
availing yourself of one, prohibits you from availing yourself of the other.

 

[karstdvr]

if only things were black and white, cut and dried, right and wrong

if only there were no greys in the world

if only instructors knew what they were doing. if only internet advice was always wrong and deadly.

if only ....

i have gotten tremendous advice on this board over the last two years.

i have also gotten awesome training from good instructors over the last two years.

one is not a substitute for the other. it's not either or. they both compliment your learning.

it's somewhat simplistic to think you can only have one or the other, and that
availing yourself of one, prohibits you from availing yourself of the other.

Good points,and I agree the internet can be an asset. Unfortunately I think one avails itself more than another now a days,and less of a balance as we'd like to see.

The one beneficial thing about having a mentor that has a lot of experience is that you are given feedback one place the internet is not capable of going,in the cave itself. Mentorship can be done directly ie light signal because trim is causing silting or vicarious means ie I see the mentor go to a modified flutter when I enter a fissure type tunnel,then I do it to.

It would be hypocritical for me to call the internet bad as far as a source of advice,because I use it myself,but I think Jim Wyatt's analogy is good,and shows we should apply "caveat emptor" to the things we read.