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Cave training with Harry Averill? Experiences?
- Thread starter Colliam7
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In my opinion, any cave instructor who thinks a student can truly consume and learn all the skills and information needed to make a good cave diver in less then 2 weeks, doesn't really care about having a student "earn" a card.
Offering the course, makes it seem like it is possible to pass it. Otherwise, why offer the course? Just to collect money and fail students?
Then again, this is starting to go off the path for the topic again.
I wish you luck in your search for an instructor, Colliam7, but again, I do caution you with using an instructor that thinks a "zero-2-hero" course is good to use for cave diving.
A ScubaBoard Staff Message...
I've edited a couple of posts to remove unsubstantiated remarks. I've got no problem with people "calling out" others for things, but lets not perpetuate rumors unless we know it's fact. If someone has a first hand account, or want's to invite the other party to participate, please feel free to comment.
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Having been through such a class I have to disagree ... which is why I needed to make another trip to Florida to complete it.
Taking a class isn't going to make anyone a "good" cave diver ... only experience can do that ... no different than any other type of diving. But I think your view doesn't consider the range of expertise and ability that students can bring into the class.
For example, although there are differences, there are also a lot of transferrable skills between wreck diving and cave diving. Someone coming into a cave class with significant wreck penetration experience brings with them a good understanding of line work, gas management, complex navigation, excellent buoyancy control, and non-silting finning techniques ... not to mention a mentality already adapted to planning and executing overhead dives. These are all essential skills to the wreck diver. So these don't have to be "learned" as part of the class curriculum, although the differences in technique due to environment will need to be discussed and practiced. Frankly, someone coming into cave diving with solid Tech 1 or Tech 2 skills is mostly going to be learning the protocols involved in navigating inside a cave ... they'll already have all the other skills ... which are not unique to caves, and frankly aren't rocket surgery.
As for getting "good" ... regardless of the environment that isn't something you're going to take away from a class. What the class is going to provide are the tools you need to develop competency. I think it's possible for some people to develop those tools in a 2-week time frame, with an appropriate background and ability prior to the class. It really depends on the student's ability to learn and the instructor's ability to teach.
On the other hand, if you're talking about a "zero to hero" class for someone with AOW and limited OW experience, then I think you've got a valid point ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
I guess we'll agree to disagree then. Pretty simple. 
yes indeed & thats the way it goes. I accept your humor with that statement, however the offending comments above do damage Harry's reputation in an unsubstantiated manner. I hope I am not the only one who sees the injustice done to Harry here.
After spending two solid weeks with Harry, I didn't observe anything that would indicate a serious health problem. He was always early to the dive site and never showed any sign of fatigue that would be associated with certain illnesses.
We hired Harry as an instructor, something that he does very well, but not to be our mother while diving. We felt well prepared before our first cave dive, including discussing what can go wrong and how to react. Considering I was the youngster in the group at 52, it would almost be negligent to not discuss potential health events that could occur while cave diving. I wouldn't hesitate to use Harry again for my next course.
However, I have to admit, I would not have Harry take my eye test at the DMV.
ucfdiver
Contributor
I think NAUI C1 would be a better option for you. It requires intro to tech with at least 75 or 100 logged dives, and allows 1/3rds with no deco or stages.
I don't really see why getting a full cave card is all that important. Why not dive, fix the issues brought up at the intro level, and then proceed onto full cave when you have tweaked everything you can? That way an instructor is critiquing skill, not nerves. With respect, the argument you gave addresses why not, but fails to address why. What do you think you gained by taking 0-hero?
However, IMO I pushed training too far apart, so there is a happy medium. As I've posted before, intro to tech+25 post course dives, cavern+intro, and Appr+full as a 3 stage process is what I would recommend.
Character Reference: I've known Harry for over 30+ years. He is meticulous and thorough, and he had very bad eyesight in the 70's. Personally I would have no problem with Harry teaching any of my loved one's.
Bill
Bill
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If I lived where you live that would be a great approach ... and one I would probably have taken. But at $3K+ every time I want to do a cave dive, it boils down to what I can practically achieve. And with my background I figured it was a worthwhile attempt. But I only made it through Apprentice on the first try, and personally was content with an Apprentice card ... but it expires after 12 months, and given my ability to get to cave country only once or twice a year, an annually expiring card didn't seem to me to be a practical option. So I went for Full Cave.
As for why not NAUI C1 ... well, why impose limits of no deco or stages? I mean, from a practical perspective I've probably spent more time breathing off a deco bottle than you have ... so what would be gained by that limitation?
I chose an instructor, not an agency ... and went with the program he offered. As it turned out, I didn't get my Full Cave until my third trip to Florida ... the second being to get in some dives at the Apprentice level to work on the issues he identified ... so for me it worked out.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
ucfdiver
Contributor
I don't think the stage limit has anything to do with what gas source you're breathing, (maybe the task loading is a slight portion of it).
New cave divers are pretty bad at picking drop locations for stage bottles. If you've swam Hill400 several times, you know that holding the stage for an extra 100ft gives you a solid rock to drop at rather than dropping it in the clay along the way. I've seen divers get blown out of JB distracted by reel work because those cave specific skills aren't developed yet-- thank goodness they weren't in any deco. Further reaches of caves-- even Ginnie result in lines being on the ceiling, which is really hard to keep track of when you're building experience, or was for me at least. I can think of several reasons why building experience before full cave dives is a good idea.
I had an incident about 2 months ago where I took a fairly new diver (25ish dives since his full cave equiv.) into a smaller section of cave and he swam past a T. We had marked the exit side on our way into the other side of the T, so I didn't think anything of it, I assumed he wanted to see the other side. Once he hit the end of that side, he became startled because he expected to see our spool. After the dive he told me he literally thought he was going to die for a few minutes. His skills are there, he has OW/wreck dives in excess of 300ft, but he didn't pick up on the flow shift, different geology of the other tunnel, and his line awareness was lacking.
Do you feel you gained anything by doing the course zero to hero? It still took you 3 trips to pass, so your financial argument is irrelevant.
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