Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[karstdvr]

It is easy to say cave access but this didn't work to well for the CDS and very well could be the end of it as well

By cave access you are referring to purchasing property? If so, this became cost prohibitive when real estate prices went psycho in Florida. For example I found 25 acres for sale near High Springs,and of that 3 acres were completely unusable because of a deep sink. The owner wanted 10k per acre, which was ridiculous, and he would subdivide the acreage I wanted, but he wanted 10k per acre-this is a sink into a really cool system, but only divable during dry periods, not worth the money. The cave agencies can open new sites and just importantly maintain access. As far as maintaining access they came to the rescue with the possible loss of Eagles Nest. Getting new access can be done with working with landowners. I've been successful in opening a few sites, and even having the owner one agree to not arrest anyone if they came in by boat. Just takes some dedicated people to spend the time to open up news sites, which the agencies are quite capable of.
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---------- Post added April 11th, 2015 at 01:48 PM ----------

But neither national nor international are words that spring to mind when I hear about how these organizations give back to their communities. What I hear mostly is what they do for the community living in or near Lake County, Florida.

There once was a time the CDS did institutes for instruction on a regular basis in Mexico, plus they have provided Spanish translated training material. I have to credit to the CDS in that they hold a Midwest workshop.

 

[PfcAJ]

It would be real nice if the NACD/CDS worked on access to Bonnet....

 

[Superlyte27]

It would be a neat trick trying to get someone arrested for coming by boat. The water ain't your land.

 

[_Slacker_]

By cave access you are referring to purchasing property?

No I think access is access. I don't care who owns it. I don't think cave divers care if it is public, commercial, or private. Of course there will be complaints about the hours, the price or restrictions, but some access is always better than no access at all which is what we have a many sites both public and private.

It would be a neat trick trying to get someone arrested for coming by boat. The water ain't your land.

While the arrest would be absurd, around here there are shots fired. Ask Colin how he feels about arguing water rights with bullets flying overhead.

 

[karstdvr]

It would be real nice if the NACD/CDS worked on access to Bonnet....

The NFSA has been working on that. If you read the transcript on the current management plan I got it moved off the closed list, to the meet certain requirements. It will cost quite a few $$$ for a system only good for small windows of opportunity. AJ, will need some help with fund raising, you up for it?

---------- Post added April 12th, 2015 at 06:08 AM ----------

No I think access is access. I don't care who owns it. I don't think cave divers care if it is public, commercial, or private. Of course there will be complaints about the hours, the price or restrictions, but some access is always better than no access at all which is what we have a many sites both public and private.



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I agree with your comments. I have spent an inordinate amount of time getting some sites open individually or with a dedicated group, and it definitely is a labor of love. The problem often times is the average cave diver feels their access to a site is an entitlement, and their right, and really forget that it is a privilege , plus someone has worked hard in the past to secure that access or maintain it. We got one site open with a lot of negotiation with the owner, and the owner decided they wanted a guide system. Very little appreciation that we got the system open for any access since it had been closed for 15 years, but an echo of comments, "I am a full cave diver and I don't need anybody holding my hand"-sorry this is what the owner wanted. The other problem is cave divers have developed a reputation of pretty poor cave conservation, and getting access from a land owner can be hard if they think their cave will not be cared for.

 

[kensuf]

Bonnet is a neat place. Let me know how I can help with getting it open. I'm all thumbs when it comes to carpentry, but I can haul lumber and I'm willing to donate the proceeds from my next couple of classes.

 

[PfcAJ]

The NFSA has been working on that. If you read the transcript on the current management plan I got it moved off the closed list, to the meet certain requirements. It will cost quite a few $$$ for a system only good for small windows of opportunity. AJ, will need some help with fund raising, you up for it?

---------- Post added April 12th, 2015 at 06:08 AM ----------



I agree with your comments. I have spent an inordinate amount of time getting some sites open individually or with a dedicated group, and it definitely is a labor of love. The problem often times is the average cave diver feels their access to a site is an entitlement, and their right, and really forget that it is a privilege , plus someone has worked hard in the past to secure that access or maintain it. We got one site open with a lot of negotiation with the owner, and the owner decided they wanted a guide system. Very little appreciation that we got the system open for any access since it had been closed for 15 years, but an echo of comments, "I am a full cave diver and I don't need anybody holding my hand"-sorry this is what the owner wanted. The other problem is cave divers have developed a reputation of pretty poor cave conservation, and getting access from a land owner can be hard if they think their cave will not be cared for.

Im no stranger to fundraising, Kelly. Give me a target dollar amount, the beneficiary, what the money is to be used for, a funding completion date and a completion date for whatever were doing with the money.

 

[karstdvr]

Im no stranger to fundraising, Kelly. Give me a target dollar amount, the beneficiary, what the money is to be used for, a funding completion date and a completion date for whatever were doing with the money.

PM sent

 

[kensuf]

So back to the topic of this thread..

I just wrapped up a full cave course. The student learned proper etiquette. So it's still being taught.

and spending time underwater in the aquifer sure beats spending time above water reading about cave drama.

 

[bada3003]

Agreed, This forum is only one means of gathering information, a mere part of the quest to improve. This thread in NO Way is considered a measurement of opinions of the greater overall cave community. However statistically it does represent a small sampling of that population and by default the NACD. I referred to a term earlier known as"Mined Data". which means to collect data from many sources as seen important to ones cause. ...

Actually, by your reasoning you can potentially do more harm than good. Even though well-intentioned. Samples don't necessarily need to be large (depends on the distribution of the population) but they have to be random. This is one of the cases where common sense reasoning -- pieces of information gathered may not help but cannot hurt -- can be wrong. What karstdvr points out should be taken to heart.

If you are really interested in learning about the opinion of NACD members (by "really" I don't question your sincerity but whether you're prepared to put hard resources behind it), then something like the following might help: among the current membership, randomly generate x samples/members. Then provide a questionnaire (must be brief) to fill out, anonymized. Provide an incentive: free 6-month (or a year) membership. You will still only get a partial response but the information contained will be meaningful. As opposed to the repeated kibitzing by the same folks on this board. I'm a NACD member and the freebie won't entice me to spend a few minutes to send in a questionnaire (I doubt for many cave divers membership fee is a significant financial factor) but the perceived seriousness of the effort might.

This thread is so long that I have to recheck what it was about, but I do applaud the overall effort.