Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[Pavao]

The Ballroom is not considered a cavern by the park and they have taken pains to sanitize it for and open it up to OW divers.

As educators, I believe it's our duty to be the first line of defense, there has been no shortage of discussion, and agreement, we, OWSIs should emphasize to new divers the dangers of overhead diving without proper training. What kind of example are we giving here?
As an OWSI and trained cavern/cave diver, do you, yourself, not consider it a cavern?

The galaxy dive has had a perfect record in terms of no accidents and definitely no deaths. Well, I think someone may have cut their hand opening up the cyalume sticks.

The father/son who died at EN also had a perfect safe record until the dive that killed them. That wasn't even close to being their first dive, it wasn't their first cave dive either, not even their first EN dive.

To date, I've had no one lodge a formal complaint with Ginnie Springs about the practice. I can't remember the last time I've participated in that event though: at least 3 or 4 years?

I've only quoted this part here because I think it directly relates to the discussion of this thread. A large portion of it debates the reporting system of standards violation and how it's flawed, we all see the bad practices being done/taught, we all know it's there and there's the feeling of having our hands tied as we can't do anything about it.
There's no rules being broken on the Megadive, so, no formal complaint can be made, should we take it as an acceptable practice then that OW divers are going into the overhead, or even cavern divers doing it at night, which makes it a cave dive? Plenty disagree!

I do recall non-cave diving divers being pulled out of the ear and having discussions about them why that was stoopid.

Well, that's exactly the point, they see it OK to do the ballroom, why not any other whole in the ground?
Luckily it wasn't their lifeless bodies being pulled out of there, luckily Ginnie is super popular and there was people to pull them out in time.

I invite any and all instructors to come out and dive with their potential customers.

Not sure what this does to help the situation.
But I'd agree, inviting CAVE instructors and cave diving organizations to participate, in an effort to promote safety in the overhead would be an awesome initiative.



Listen, I don't mean to be argumentative or a party pooper, I wish, and am sure it will be a great weekend of fun for all, I wish I could be there and participate to the socializing parties, but I can't pretend I'm OK with this dive, not after all the training I have received and the knowledge about the dangers of the overhead I now know!

I wish you guys have a blast and stay safe!

 

[GDI]

I don't doubt that you have some good feedback on this forum and other places too,but the real important thing to remember is that this represents a very small % of your membership, and cave divers in general. The only way you will know what the membership thinks is contact them directly,but statisitically I found you will only get 30% responding,but PLEASE don't consider these forums the thoughts of cave divers in general or your membership specifically. One state agency in Florida will get two or three complaints, and assume this is the feeling of all the users, and will respond, without realizing this is a huge minority and a response wasn't needed, or worse yet disenfranchises the majority. There is a core group that use these forums, as noted we are at post #4XX, and with probably several thousand views, but it is the same people, and more likely if members who don't use the forums now, probably will never , despite discussions like this.

Agreed, This forum is only one means of gathering information, a mere part of the quest to improve. This thread in NO Way is considered a measurement of opinions of the greater overall cave community. However statistically it does represent a small sampling of that population and by default the NACD. I referred to a term earlier known as"Mined Data". which means to collect data from many sources as seen important to ones cause.

I have made available myself to NACD members, other agencies and fellow cave divers locally here in Florida and internationally. The response is as typically expected some doubters and some hopefuls. The doubters with usual negativity and the hopefuls ranging from the curious to the "it's about time" lets get at it and make things happen mindset. My e- mailbox is full.

This thread is not specific about nor directed to the NACD, NSS-CDS, GUE, PSIA, TDI NAUI, PADI, SSI, SSNI, ACUC, CMAS. BCDG etc. Its about cave diving and the problems we are all seeing. WORLD WIDE. The agencies need to come together and establish a core set of skills and expectation of what it takes to be a cave diver. We need to better communicate, and where and when required establish common protocols not just here in Florida or Mexico but also France, Britian, Australia, Russia. Cave Divers are a international community.

Lets hope more join in this discussion. If you know someone bring them to read the thread and participate. I want to hear(read) what they have to say.

For the NACD members out there whom I have yet to talk with, if you wish to drop me a line or come to the membership meetings every quarter, there is one tomorrow (11 Apr Upstairs @ Ginnie 6 pm). Tell how your training was? Did it meet your expectations? Are you a better diver as a result of it, even though you may have passed or failed?

 

[karstdvr]

The Ballroom is not considered a cavern by the park and they have taken pains to sanitize it for and open it up to OW divers. The galaxy dive has had a perfect record in terms of no accidents and definitely no deaths. Well, I think someone may have cut their hand opening up the cyalume sticks. To date, I've had no one lodge a formal complaint with Ginnie Springs about the practice. I can't remember the last time I've participated in that event though: at least 3 or 4 years? I do recall non-cave diving divers being pulled out of the ear and having discussions about them why that was stoopid. I invite any and all instructors to come out and dive with their potential customers.

I wish you good luck and a lot of fun. I say this because with being an owner of this board you can give a safety talk to avert any incidents. Ginnie Ballroom is a cave, because off to the left there is an area that has no visible light,but if people stay in the central conduit they are in a cavern. Of course, a cavern becomes a cave at night. There have been multiple fatalities in the Ginnie ballroom, which is something that angers many cave divers, because it is termed as safe overhead. I do recall an incident around New years 1999 when a Galaxy dive participant got disoriented and panicked. I was there for the party but not diving,but the person freaked out trying to find the exit, fortunately an alert diver got ahold of them and swam them to the surface.

 

[The Chairman]

ScubaBoard does not 'sponsor' any dives. Any number of dives are planned on ScubaBoard. We even will run ads for those dives, but we aren't a dive shop and we don't take responsibility for how those dives are run. It's up to the individual organizers/boats/facilities to make sure that their rules are being followed. They take the money and they assume the liability. I won't be giving a dive briefing since I won't be having any students (by choice) in the ballroom.

 

[ucfdiver]

i'm not sure that giving the nacd money gives anything back in a meaningful way to florida caves and cave diving

They used to throw great keg parties at Ginnie. Chili cook offs were fun, too.

 

[nakatomi]

They used to throw great keg parties at Ginnie. Chili cook offs were fun, too.

All the agency and instructor bashing by the two of you is not making the agency you associate with look too good. Just saying.

 

[karstdvr]

They used to throw great keg parties at Ginnie. Chili cook offs were fun, too.

The NACD is a co-sponsor of the NFSA event -Ecoday at Madison Blue Springs State park on April 18th. This is a great event because it gets some much needed things done at Madison where they are on a limited budget, but shows that cave divers support the community since local residents will be there too. I would be remiss in not saying the NSS_CDS is a partner in this event. It is greatly appreciated that officers and members of these organizations participate. So, this is an invitation, which includes lunch, door prizes, and the afternoon is available for some world class diving.

 

[ucfdiver]

All the agency and instructor bashing by the two of you is not making the agency you associate with look too good. Just saying.

How is saying they hosted events bashing?

 

[bamafan]

Just out of curiosity what would people like to see the dive training agencies do more of? It is easy to say cave access but this didn't work to well for the CDS and very well could be the end of it as well which in my opinion is a shame due to a family thinking someone else is responsible for the negligent behavior of their loved ones. I am just curious as to what people would like to see so that they felt they were getting their money's worth?

 

[boulderjohn]

What follows involves some admitted conjecture, so please read it as more of a question about giving back than an accusation. I am not a member of the NACD and never have been. I am a member of the NSS-CDS, and do have some participation there. In fact, I will be doing a presentation on cave diving for the local grotto next week. (Actually, that is a NSS activity, not an NSS-CDS activity, now that I think about it.) In general, though, I don't know a whole lot about how the NACD and NSS-CDS give back to their memberships.

The two names have one word in common: NATIONAL. To me, that means the United States. But when I had a discussion about some NACD issues with Brian Kakuk in the Bahamas, I learned he was an NACD member, and the warning signs in the caves were NACD. I have seen NACD and NSS-CDS warning signs in caves in Mexico, but I don't know if those organizations were officially responsible for their placement. So I guess a better word might be INTERNATIONAL.

But neither national nor international are words that spring to mind when I hear about how these organizations give back to their communities. What I hear mostly is what they do for the community living in or near Lake County, Florida. I live in Colorado. Although I was certified in Lake County, Florida, I really don't have a lot of dives there since my certification. Most of my cave dives since then have been in Mexico, with some in the Bahamas, and a fair amount in Marianna, FL.

My perception, right or wrong, is that although the perspective memberships of both organizations is national and even international, the focus of their efforts and activities is north Florida. I would be happy if people would step in and correct that perception if it is incorrect.