Cave diving on CC is safer than on OC?

[berndo]

Do you dive CCR @berndo ?

Yes, but it doesn't matter in this case because I'm basing what I said on cave accident reports I have read over the last 15 years.

Over what time period have you been reading reports?

 

[Underwater Tourist]

This too. If you die on a CCR cave dive that isnt even possible on OC how does that count?

Yeah thats why I wanted to limit it to just tourist cave dives that can be done on CC or OC. CC allows to do dives that wouldnt be possible on OC to begin with, and counting accidents during those more complex CC dives would be silly. How many actually fall under that category I don't know

The problem with this question in the first place is that almost every death is multifactorial and you can't point to "one thing" as responsible. You cannot and should not be dividing deaths by dives and calculating some sort of percentage and saying "look more dengerous!" The premise and the question are flawed

I see what you are saying, but I am not trying to determine whether a rebreather caused an accident per se (edit: well, i guess i am lol). Its more about if having a rebreather improves ones risk/reward ratio when doing cave dives. So when thinking about an average tourist cave dive, do the extra options you get with having a rebreather outweigh the risks of using it in the first place. @berndo put it nicely below:

How many people run out of gas compared to how many rebreather accidents?
If the 'fix' (using a ccr) causes more accidents that the issue (people running out of gas), it's not a great fix.

I dont think a ccr is safer for your everyday tourist cave dives to the very front part of Ginnie. But when you start getting further back in the cave, a ccr gives you time and options should an issue arise.

Intuitively I think a lot of people would agree, but then, does it really matter how far are you in the cave? A little controversial statement, but don't shoot me. What I mean is that when you are on OC doing a 1000ft penetration vs. a 3000ft one, your ratio of how much gas you have to how much distance you need to travel back doesn't really change. So in principle, given proper gas planning, distance from the entrance should not be a factor at play.

 

[berndo]

.... does it really matter how far are you in the cave?

Yes, generally speaking, the 'more safe' shifts from OC to CCR the deeper and further away you are from the entrance because at some point you can't bring extra gas anymore.

Usually I think rjacks posts are great and way above average SB quality as he actually knows what he's talking about... but this last one sucks donkey balls.

 

[Underwater Tourist]

Yes, generally speaking, the 'more safe' shifts from OC to CCR the deeper and further away you are from the entrance because at some point you can't bring extra gas anymore.

Thats where we transition to a dive that can only be done on CCR because you cant comfortably bring enough OC gas with you

A good hypothetical scenario that fits the question is doing a dive with four 11L aluminum tanks (so 2 stages) vs doing the exact same dive on CCR

 

[lostsheep]

Yes, but it doesn't matter in this case because I'm basing what I said on cave accident reports I have read over the last 15 years.

Over what time period have you been reading reports?

What does the time period I have been reading reports have to do with anything?

Is there an ad hominem to follow or something ? Relax dude, I literally just wanted to know if you dive CCR or not as your posts are coming off with the fervor of someone with an axe to grind.

 

[L13]

Do you even read posts before you write an answer?

He may not have. I think a number of people have muted you, due to posting style. If they are responding to other's posts and not your's that could be the reason.

It can be weird to read a thread where half the people have muted the other half

 

[TheCatFish]

There's a lot of nuanced discussion... my 2cent, CC has more tools available than OC. If you're well trained and religious about your checklist, CC should afford you more options to stay safe. We can play "if" with all the different complications of stage diving and travel/bottom gas etc with all the complications that have popped up for CC users, but does that really help us find an answer or is it just more convoluted arguing?


Which fits you better? More tools, more complicated, or less tools, and less complicated?
It leaves a lot of individual variation in the response. So the answer to the CC vs OC safety question is: depends on the operator.

 

[berndo]

Thats where we transition to a dive that can only be done on CCR because you cant comfortably bring enough OC gas with you

A good hypothetical scenario that fits the question is doing a dive with four 11L aluminum tanks (so 2 stages) vs doing the exact same dive on CCR

I don't know.
Personally, I wouldn't get a ccr for dives I can do 4 AL80s in nitrox range.

He may not have. I think a number of people have muted you, due to posting style. If they are responding to other's posts and not your's that could be the reason.

He was replying to AJ not to me in the post I quoted, Sherlock.

And please put me on your ignore list and stop tagging me with your nonsense.

 

[Celt]

The use of a rebreather is inherently more dangerous than OC because of its complexity and possible failures. People should stop twisting the facts when giving advice to others.

 

[L13]

What does the time period I have been reading reports have to do with anything?

Is there an ad hominem to follow or something ? Relax dude, I literally just wanted to know if you dive CCR or not as your posts are coming off with the fervor of someone with an axe to grind.

I've notice that some people who love to ask others their qualifications hate it when they get asked the same kinds questions.

The truth is, when asked just for information, it is valuable. When asked as an argument for or against an idea, it is ad hominem.

A good argument stands on its own regardless of who says it, but some times the context of the expertise of the speaker does help judge the likelihood that the statement is good before expending the energy to evaluate the statement itself.