Cave diving on CC is safer than on OC?

[ofg-1]

"The more they overtake the plumbing, the easier it is stop up the drain" Montgomery Scott

 

[crofrog]

My suspicion for the biggest causes: casual (or non-) use of checklists, and failure to abort the dive at early signs of an anomaly.

I do not dive a rebreather, but I think the checklist design leaves a lot to be desired when you compare CCR checklists to the aviation checklist.

 

[berndo]

I dont think a ccr is safer for your everyday tourist cave dives to the very front part of Ginnie.

What you mean by 'very front'? I think it's not that hard to carry 8k-10k liters/280-350 cuft of gas, even in SM and still swim well enough, which gives you quite a bit of range at Ginnie depth ... I think within that range it's safer to be OC. Most CCR accidents I'm aware of happened in or well within that range.
The delay you would have due a navigational error would likely be due to the divers being distracted by something... and getting distracted by something is much worse on a CCR as we have seen.

Sadly we will never get data to support this since recoveries are always hush hush.

I think we see many more dead divers on CCR vs OC considering the numbers of ccr vs OC divers.
We don't have the numbers but I very much doubt that any diver that spends time in cave site parking lots would dispute this. Even without getting to see more reports.

I do feel like some instructors and scuba 'infuencers' are downplaying the danger or are oblivious to it.
Gus's analysis of his rr incident makes me believe they are oblivious. I feel more and more people have a very nonchalant attitude towards rebreathers. I'm surprised we don't see more accidents...

 

[tomfcrist]

To make the stats even fuzzier, we would need to exclude how many of the CC deaths were during exploration or very complex dives that cannot be done on OC to begin with



Yeah I agree, gas duration is a plus, but realistically, what is the only emergency when you need more gas on top of your + your buddies reserve? Navigation error is pretty much it. But besides that, I think OC simplicity can outweigh CC-specific risks

Navigation error, lost/broken guideline, entanglement, etc. should all be recoverable on OC for sure, but time is limited…thus inducing excess stress. That’s not to say a rebreather diver won’t also experience stress in those situations, just that there’s more time to figure it out.

 

[formernuke]

One close call and one fatality at roaring river

Both caused by stupidity.

 

[berndo]

Navigation error, lost/broken guideline, entanglement, etc. should all be recoverable on OC for sure, but time is limited…thus inducing excess stress. That’s not to say a rebreather diver won’t also experience stress in those situations, just that there’s more time to figure it out.

This seems to be the standard argument by the ccr safer than OC crowd. Yet when you look actual accidents... how many accidents do we see that were based on a delayed exit compared to ccr accidents?
In theory it's a good point to make but is doesn't seem to hold up in real life, IMHO.

 

[Pavao]

... how many accidents do we see that were based on a delayed exit compared to ccr accidents?
In theory it's a good point to make but is doesn't seem to hold up in real life, IMHO.

Most of them?
Besides the Canadian guy who breathed O2 in Ginnie, pretty much all OC deaths were a result of eventually running out of gas, no?

 

[berndo]

Most of them?
Besides the Canadian guy who breathed O2 in Ginnie, pretty much all OC deaths were a result of eventually running out of gas, no?

You're misunderstanding what I said and you wrong about 'just one Canadian guy'.

How many people run out of gas compared to how many rebreather accidents?
If the 'fix' (using a ccr) causes more accidents that the issue (people running out of gas), it's not a great fix.

 

[tomfcrist]

Yet when you look actual accidents... how many accidents do we see that were based on a delayed exit compared to ccr accidents?

I can think of a few in manatee pretty recently.

How many people run out of gas compared to how many rebreather accidents?
If the 'fix' (using a ccr) causes more accidents that the issue (people running out of gas), it's not a great fix.

How many people would have run oput of gas if they hadnt been on CCR? I dont know.

the "data" is binary...we only know about incidents that have occurred already, and have to speculate about near misses.

I dont think one method is "Safer" than another. I think both methods are tools with advantages and disadvantages.

 

[PfcAJ]

I can think of a few in manatee pretty recently.

How many people would have run oput of gas if they hadnt been on CCR? I dont know.

the "data" is binary...we only know about incidents that have occurred already, and have to speculate about near misses.

I dont think one method is "Safer" than another. I think both methods are tools with advantages and disadvantages.

There were a few at manatee that weren’t even trained cave divers.