Cave diver drowns - Jackson Blue Springs, Florida

[Germie]

And don't forget, on an mCCR you need to add oxygen manually. There is an orifice in the Sidewinder, but normally you still have to add sometimes oxygen manually because you have to 'open' the orifice (by the intermediate pressure) on your metabolism. If you have stress, the metabolism will get higher. If the mav was somewere you cannot use it, then you have also a problem, even if you have a working ccr.

 

[cerich]

Chris, it isn't just you. It's the industry as a whole and these people thump their chests and claim they are all about safety and are so self righteous yet they continually choose a buck over safety. Look at the dual fatality in Eagle's nest where the guy got hung up and started shedding gear trying to go down one of Andy's lines. Jim Wyatt and the CDS went on a crusade against gold line T's. I pointed out that there were numerous gold line T's in North Florida even though he said there weren't and was attacked for it. It wasn't the gold line T that caused the double fatality just like in this case it wasn't the line. It was the industry choosing to make a buck and promoting to far to fast instead of really caring about safety like they proclaim so proudly. As a professional in any activity you should be held to a higher standard. I am in construction and we have willful negligence. As a professional I am supposed to fix or stop work if I see something unsafe. As a trained professional you have the same responsibility. There are no line commitees in JB and that's a cop out. Maybe you and the other's will actually look deep down and change the industry and quit pushing people to go to far to fast for a buck. I seriously doubt it but one can hope. As a surviving spouse of someone who was killed by negligence I know how inaction by so called professionals can have devastating effects. If you want to change things then pressure the other professionals in the industry to change and say no.

Bit to unpack there.
Agree regards the T issue, and that was not the root of the accident IMHO
To the line committee, I wasn't coping out. While I dived JB a ton and taught there, I am not a local instructor, and not in the CDS club who seems to claim how caves get lined etc. I am not in the club because I have been too vocal and frustrated for years, anyone around a bit knows that.

I don't think anyone who has been a student of mine would ever say that I push too fast for a buck, most students I annoy by insisting they slow down. But, whatever, blame me as an individual if you must.

Be well

 

[L13]

A few long posts would benefit from paragraph breaks for readability.

 

[cerich]

A few long posts would benefit from paragraph breaks for readability.

You take the posts like the industry sells continuing education, fast and furious with no breaks. OK?

That's $40 for the Grammer Speciality Diver card please.

The Advanced Grammer Speciality Diver Class starts next weekend. Sign up now and you can dive deep into the wonder of APA7.

 

[nakatomi]

Because I am not on any line committee. We all know what will happen if I start pulling lines others have put in.

As a suggestion, why not just mark the jump lines in the first 2000' of Jackson Blue. Consider putting colored cookies where the lines start next to gold (or other lines towards the exit).
Green=good to go both in sidemount and backmount for most divers, orange=advanced passage (silty, low, etc), black=sidemount only and red=adv. sidemount only.
Obviously color coding lines for beginners would be frowned upon by many, but honestly it's no uncommon for people to jump onto the wrong line in JB and get their asses into trouble. The lost student tunnel comes to mind. Something like this could actually help and it would cost next to nothing.

 

[Manatee Diver]

Did they solve this in Ginnie by pulling most of the lines in Bunny Land except Fluffy Bunny?

 

[cerich]

As a suggestion, why not just mark the jump lines in the first 2000' of Jackson Blue. Consider putting colored cookies where the lines start next to gold (or other lines towards the exit).
Green=good to go both in sidemount and backmount for most divers, orange=advanced passage (silty, low, etc), black=sidemount only and red=adv. sidemount only.
Obviously color coding lines for beginners would be frowned upon by many, but honestly it's no uncommon for people to jump onto the wrong line in JB and get their asses into trouble. The lost student tunnel comes to mind. Something like this could actually help and it would cost next to nothing.

like ski hills and diamonds etc.. I see merit, I also see egos and people just having to. It makes blame easier, but I am honestly unsure of quantitative data regards actual safety outcomes

 

[Joneill]

My post was in reply to someone else that was saying basically that only cave diving allowed him to go somewhere that very few people have been before.

Most people are risk averse/cautious enough to not put themselves in this type of situation in the first place. I love to dive but would not consider (even for a split second) diving in a situation where you have to squeeze yourself through a restriction - to see what? more rocks? No thanks, not for me!

Different strokes for different folks, but I’m not surprised when I read about these incidents as this type of diving is inherently much higher risk vs open water diving.

 

[nakatomi]

like ski hills and diamonds etc.. I see merit, I also see egos and people just having to. It makes blame easier, but I am honestly unsure of quantitative data regards actual safety outcomes

Just two examples. Horseshoe circuit=green, LST=red. That makes it really easy not to get them mixed up, sadly that happenend quite a bit.
The guys at the shop should have a hunch as to the skillset and experience of their customers.
Something like "look for the line marker in green" or "under all circumstances avoid lines with black markers" should be good advice that can't hurt.

 

[DavidRDiver]

As a suggestion, why not just mark the jump lines in the first 2000' of Jackson Blue. Consider putting colored cookies where the lines start next to gold (or other lines towards the exit).
Green=good to go both in sidemount and backmount for most divers, orange=advanced passage (silty, low, etc), black=sidemount only and red=adv. sidemount only.
Obviously color coding lines for beginners would be frowned upon by many, but honestly it's no uncommon for people to jump onto the wrong line in JB and get their asses into trouble. The lost student tunnel comes to mind. Something like this could actually help and it would cost next to nothing.

I usually stay off social media but, I had met the diver and his buddy in the past. I dive in JB a lot, and have also done just about every one of the jumps in the first couple of thousand feet. Some are quite nasty, silty and tight. I have seen video from two close friends both smaller than I and one of them got hung up in the actual restriction I am assuming the accident victim got stuck at. The line was placed by one instructor and several people have suggested it needed to come out, but we all know that would start a fecal storm. I also have been in that passage and got to a point where I decided it was not the best place for me to be, and I do like to dive in tight passages. I ended up backing out of it, you aren’t turning around. And it was definetly a no viz exit back out into the main passage.

There is not really a line committee but a few of us have been repairing the gold line (and some other lines that have needed attention) over the last year. And we have been talking about re-laying some of the jump lines in other areas. The suggestion was made that we should put some cookies on the gold line at prominent jumps, avalanche, king’s, deloaches/source jump. The comment was made that if we are a full cave diver and doing those kind of dives we should know where we are in the cave. I initially disagreed thinking it’s easier to look at a road map with street names. But the more I have been in that particular cave the more I agree with the no road maps. If you are a cave diver you need to look at every aspect of your dive and decide if any passage or any navigational decision you are making is the correct decision.

I have to agree with Chris and say that passing through tight restrictions does need to be learned under the guidance of someone that knows how to properly do them and can get to you from both sides. I was -laying around in the beanie tunnel and stuck myself pretty good in that restriction. Again referencing back to the street signs with levels, I think it would be too much of a challenge for some people to try the advanced sm/bottle off restriction passage just because there is a sign marking what could have otherwise been a more difficult jump to find.