Cave certs explained....

[ucfdiver]

Let's clarify this (again!). Ginnie will allow you to do dives in doubles at Intro level if your instructor signs off on that. If your agency does specify that you have been certified on doubles at any level, you can dive doubles at Ginnie. If your agency did not specify that, Ginnie will not allow you. Yes it is your body, your life and such, but if you die doing something beyond your agency's limits and the Ginnie operation allowed you to do that, they are also liable.

The point to limiting divers on gas is to limit penetration. What would you suggest in terms of this needing to be revisited?

I'd revisit allowing 130's if that's their concern, since that's almost the same amount of gas as smaller steel doubles. Why require an instructor's signature for double 71's, but not require it for an overfilled steel? Please understand I'm not suggesting Ginnie is in the wrong here, they're doing what they believe is right, even if it means turning away a diver with only doubles (losing $30 or whatever the entrance fee) and that's commendable, I respect anyone who's willing to do what they see as the right thing even when it negatively impacts their pocket book.

From my (limited) experience that does NOT include any cave training except cavern, I'd suggest limiting the dive penetration to let's say 35 cu ft going in (around 1/3 of a 104) if that's the purpose of the rule. If another reason behind this rule is presented to me in intro to cave in a few weeks I'll update my opinion and post the reason why, but for now it seems a cu ft limit would make more sense. I just can't wrap my head around the logic of it. I think the no deco rule really limits using a large steel tank or 1/3 of doubles so this is more than likely a big non issue.

If we can't trust a intro diver's judgment not to break the doubles rules, can we really trust them to not break the single tank rules?

I'd love for a NACD board member to chime in here, anyone who has taken a NACD course knows that these rules are very well thought out, and I'm sure they could clear up some of my confusion. I'll PM one later tonight and ask for a reply. I'm very impressed with the NACD as a training organization, and my questioning this rule is for better understanding and not to find a "loophole" by using larger tanks. As I stated earlier, I don't see cave diving as black and white, if it was one could read the rule book, memorize it, and dive Wakulla springs, Cow Springs, or Alachua sink.

Thanks for letting me know you need an instructors signature, I'll be sure to get one after my class. I like the idea of having that extra safety step if a tank's oring fails.

 

[ianr33]

I think the no deco rule really limits using a large steel tank or 1/3 of doubles so this is more than likely a big non issue.

In Florida that may be so but no deco will not limit much of anything in Mexico.

The no deco bit does not make much sense to me either if the diver is deco certified.

Limiting penetration at the intro level to 1/3rds or X cu ft is an interesting idea.

 

[jeandiver]

Jean,

Glad to hear about Peacock. Sounds like the vis might still suck for a little while longer though?

I am staying at Dive Outpost next weekend. I am sure I will see you at Megadive. I hope the weather holds up for us.

COOL !!!
Yes , I will see you at the Mega.
Hopefully , the weather should be fine. I'll check the forcast.
Ginnie is really nice now. So is Manatee.
Madison is PRETTY HIGH flow until the cave settles down a bit.

See ya next weekend.

Jean

 

[TSandM]

There aren't any scuba police in the caves, any more than there are anywhere else. When Peter and I were recently in Florida, we were diving with some very experienced people who were amazed that we were still respecting the 6ths limit for our cert. They said that's generally the very first thing that people begin to stretch or ignore. You can't make people be cautious; they are, or they aren't.

The argument about 130s versus small doubles is humorous if you have been to Florida. I can't imagine anyone diving in those caves in 72s. If you're going to dive there, you drag the biggest, baddest tanks you can carry into the water with you, or you do what I did, and collect 27 minute dives

 

[contender]

From my (limited) experience that does NOT include any cave training except cavern, I'd suggest limiting the dive penetration to let's say 35 cu ft going in (around 1/3 of a 104) if that's the purpose of the rule. If another reason behind this rule is presented to me in intro to cave in a few weeks I'll update my opinion and post the reason why, but for now it seems a cu ft limit would make more sense. I just can't wrap my head around the logic of it. I think the no deco rule really limits using a large steel tank or 1/3 of doubles so this is more than likely a big non issue.
Do you honestly think anyone will pay attention to their cubic foot limit. People are already lazy and that would add one more calculation to figure out. Let me answer that for you, NO.


If we can't trust a intro diver's judgment not to break the doubles rules, can we really trust them to not break the single tank rules?
Get certified then ask that question again.

I'd love for a NACD board member to chime in here, anyone who has taken a NACD course knows that these rules are very well thought out, and I'm sure they could clear up some of my confusion. I'll PM one later tonight and ask for a reply. I'm very impressed with the NACD as a training organization, and my questioning this rule is for better understanding and not to find a "loophole" by using larger tanks. As I stated earlier, I don't see cave diving as black and white, if it was one could read the rule book, memorize it, and dive Wakulla springs, Cow Springs, or Alachua sink.
Ask your instructor these questions, that's what they are for. If he can't give you an answer, then ask someone else.

Thanks for letting me know you need an instructors signature, I'll be sure to get one after my class. I like the idea of having that extra safety step if a tank's oring fails.

Rules are in place because of past accident analysis, you may not understand or agree with everything but it's there to help save your life. Instead of seeking answers from an internet forum, why don't you ask your instructor these questions, he will be able to answer everyone of them. This is part of what you are paying for, the instructors knowledge, let them impart it on you. Remember, when you are in the cave, how far in do you want to be when something goes wrong? It's all about progressive penetration with experience.

 

[ucfdiver]

There aren't any scuba police in the caves, any more than there are anywhere else.

Mr Murphy is the scuba police, and I hear he hands out stiff punishments to those who exceed cave limits. I don't want to meet him.

 

[Meng_Tze]

..
From my (limited) experience that does NOT include any cave training except cavern, I'd suggest limiting the dive penetration to let's say 35 cu ft going in (around 1/3 of a 104) if that's the purpose of the rule. .... I just can't wrap my head around the logic of it. I think the no deco rule really limits using a large steel tank or 1/3 of doubles so this is more than likely a big non issue.

If we can't trust a intro diver's judgment not to break the doubles rules, can we really trust them to not break the single tank rules?

I do not think limiting divers to a specific volume is in practice any different than 1/3's. Divers with low sac rates will penetrate deeper, others less. Then why set a volume rule if they are expected to dive 1/3's later on anyway. Might as well teach them to do 1/3's from the beginning.

The 'no doubles' rule is I think because of the difference between shutting down valves. If you have been trained in a single tank set up, and then start doing dives with doubles, you may not know (at least have not been trained by the same agency) in how to shut down doubles. If you do do that intro training in doubles, you will have to show proficiency with doubles.


As for intro divers breaking rules, if that is what they do then they depend on luck rather than history and logic to conduct their cave dives. This is not limited to intro divers, but all cave divers for that matter.

 

[karstdvr]

There aren't any scuba police in the caves, any more than there are anywhere else.

There are scuba police for the caves. Quite simply when something occurs you can plan on a response. For example the largest owner of caves feels that scooters cause damage to caves,so guess what,most caves don't allow scooters. If there were a number of accidents that involved intro level divers,and the perception was that exceeding their level was the cause,then you can guess the response. There is a balance between recreation and safety,and when we are incapable of providing the safety component,then someone does it for us. The bad news is we usually don't like their answer.

 

[Rich Courtney]

There are scuba police for the caves.

LOL......

Kelly, you'll have to see my "cave police" UV-26 when you're down next. Blue nose and tail cone, 3 sets of blue and red strobes.....

Safe diving,

Rich

 

[OneBrightGator]

The "no doubles" rule creates a hard, "surface-validatable" limit. It's 1/3rd of the largest single tank available. Gas volume limits can become cumbersome to verify ("but my dbl 130s only have 2537 psi in them!!!"). Penetration distance is impossible to verify under normal circumstances. The true issue is that divers, myself included, don't buy into the no doubles rules and too many people fall into the trap that 400' in the cave will kill you just as likely as 1600'.

There are too many people teaching for too many agencies with too many different standards. The numbers of cave instructors, cave cert. agencies and different leveled cave certs all need to be reduced.