Cave Certs Expiration

[Imbodie]

Tim, my take on it is similar to what a cave instructor told me: Cards have limits that reflect the amount of training a diver received. A cert like Intro, which is usually achieved with 4 days of training (one of which is often mostly OW and gear config). Sixths is the limit, along with no navigational decisions or deco, to allow divers to practice their skills, enjoy their diving, dive some caves, and do so in a safe manner. Sixths was decided upon not simply to increase the conservatism of a dive, but to reduce the stress placed on a diver during a dive. Increased conservatism, less distance from the exit, no navigational decisions, no deco.....all of those limits reduce a diver's stress level, and any stress reduction is an increase in safety.

Tom and I argue about what's better: the NAUI way or the CDS way (no offense meant here, just picking agencies for comparison). His point, and I get it, is that Cave1 is a single class that allows many/most cave divers to do pretty much all the diving they could want. Many people never want to get into exploration, more than 2 nav decisions, scooters, stages, etc. There's not that pressure to progress like there is with an Apprentice cert (expiring or not). I really used the time between Intro and Apprentice to practice and prepare. I never violated sixths or no nav decisions while Intro, but I know I would've been diving to thirds had I gotten Cave1. Intro gave me time to practice, in a cave, and it let me enjoy the caves at that level before I moved on.

I think the pressure to "move on" is something that's real and I haven't seen discussed yet. I haven't ever had the urge to ask a Cave1 diver when they were going to "finish up" and get their "real cert" (purposefully inflammatory). However, it's the question I always hear (and want to ask) when I hear someone is "just" Intro or Apprentice. I know when I had my Intro cert I got those questions.

Victor,
Probably only the 2nd eloquent response of this ENTIRE thread (oops colors not caps). I totally support your asking such questions if the topic comes up in conversation. I personally think NAUI is the better route, but then I also did PADI Cavern and stayed at that level for 2+ years before it was time to move to Cave1. I knew it was time to make the jump to Cave1 when I would get to the stop sign and sigh... I had the gear, I had the hard skills and it was time for the next step. I can't wait until Cave2.... I am very excited to have heard (in this thread) that I'll get to do some survey work as well as some other skills... more so than that my only motivation from the start was to be able to do sump dives. Unfortunately I had to move away from Cave Country so that is going to put a slow down on my cave diving.... Maybe I'll be back soon (go figure, no job offers in Florida UNTIL I move back to Arkansas) or maybe not. I'll get back as often as I can if I end up somewhere else and eventually make the jump to Full Cave.
Anyway, have those conversations (maybe not with such an inflammatory intro into the conversation) because never know what you might learn from that diver.

 

[victorzamora]

I personally think NAUI is the better route, but then I also did PADI Cavern and stayed at that level for 2+ years before it was time to move to Cave1.

And I think this is a very important part of the issue. You're not indicative of the "typical" diver seeking cave training. It could be argued that nobody is "normal," of course, but let me explain: I wouldn't have been happy with a Cavern cert. Despite never violating an Intro standard, I can definitely see myself violating a Cavern cert. I didn't live in Florida, so when I made a trip to dive, it was a fairly special occasion. I started my cave training, as I know many others have, with a distinct lack in fundamentals. I know now I should've sought out remedial training before starting cave training, but you know what they say about hindsight!

The benefit of the Cavern/Intro route is that it gave me another step between zero and hero. It gave me a "training wheels" cave cert that I (and many others) would benefit from.

I knew it was time to make the jump to Cave1 when I would get to the stop sign and sigh... I had the gear, I had the hard skills and it was time for the next step. I can't wait until Cave2.... I am very excited to have heard (in this thread) that I'll get to do some survey work as well as some other skills... more so than that my only motivation from the start was to be able to do sump dives. Unfortunately I had to move away from Cave Country so that is going to put a slow down on my cave diving.... Maybe I'll be back soon (go figure, no job offers in Florida UNTIL I move back to Arkansas) or maybe not. I'll get back as often as I can if I end up somewhere else and eventually make the jump to Full Cave.
Anyway, have those conversations (maybe not with such an inflammatory intro into the conversation) because never know what you might learn from that diver.

I think that's another pretty major difference. Not everybody lives in FL or has a chance to go diving (specifically cave diving) with any real frequency. I think that 1/6 and no nav is a decent idea for those guys.

The main draw, to me, of setting up training the NAUI way (Cavern, Cave1, Cave2) is that there's less pressure driving people to Full Cave. It gives a good stopping point. I think Apprentice is just as good, except that few people stop at that level.

 

[kensuf]

Victor, well articulated post. One slight correction, the NAUI Cave Diver Level I program doesn't require Cavern. Pre-reqs for Cave 1 include Intro to Tech (or equivalent), but not Cavern.

 

[karstdvr]

Kelly, I don't have any credibility to start with. I am a Cave1 certified diver with 25 dives to his name...
But on that note, I don't even know how to phrase my statements/questions half the time... where the conversations digress is when people go on the attack when they can't give a simple answer in response to a question. I, being one that has no credibility to begin with will just respond because its my nature.

When I ask a question, which is how this started and snowballed , it is because I would like a valid response that is backed up by something near to fact.

I think your question was valid, and I don't dismiss your credibility. I was questioning the need to repeat the question but with capitals for the majority of the posts you made. Do I think a standard would be great, yeah, but do I think it will happen, probably not. We did have a standard when intro was in a single tank,but we will never put that genie in the bottle. Is there a problem with people willfully exceeding their training limits-yes. I know a couple sites that didn't open up to either the general cave diving community or past being a guided site because this was a factor.

 

[northernone]

In case the original poster is still around:

If you've completed a level of training to the standards I believe most agencies appreciate getting their dues and having the card issued showing such.

There should be no pressure to continue ongoing training nor stick with the same instructor for further instruction. It's not the instructor who decides if you'd like to continue on to full cave or perhaps you might dive a lifetime within cavern limits.

My mother is a fine cavern diver, and has absolutely no design to go beyond the light zone after decades of diving but loves cavern. If ever she does a cavern course I know she'd appreciate receiving the 'cert' when she's completed it.

To the rest of us:
I love hearing cave discussion. Might I suggest a few more threads so we don't have hundreds posts on dozens of topics all jumbled into one?

Carry on!
Cameron

 

[Imbodie]

I think your question was valid, and I don't dismiss your credibility. I was questioning the need to repeat the question but with capitals for the majority of the posts you made. Do I think a standard would be great, yeah, but do I think it will happen, probably not. We did have a standard when intro was in a single tank,but we will never put that genie in the bottle. Is there a problem with people willfully exceeding their training limits-yes. I know a couple sites that didn't open up to either the general cave diving community or past being a guided site because this was a factor.

Thank you for your not dismissing my credibility... but really I don't have any. I started emphasizing and repeating when everyone started trying to change the discussion to focus on my abilities or away from expiring certs/standards of certifications. I appreciate your feelings on having a standard "standard" and the only way we get back to it is open discussion about the benefits/detriments of having such a standard.

 

[KevinNM]

I don't do this stuff at all, but I found the digression into why actually diving 1/3rds is highly aggressive interesting.

 

[Nirvana]

Is 1/3rd safe? Actually the person we attribute to the creation of 1/3rds would comment it was highly liberal, and in an OOA scenario near maximum penetration it, we would have two fatalities.

Reading this the discussion on the risks of diving thirds, I recalled reading in "Caverns Measureless to Man" (on chapter 8, I checked), Sheck Exley telling a story of a dive in which he almost died out of gas while diving thirds. His buddy lost all gas because of a first stage leak while at maximum penetration, a little more than 4000ft into the cave. Sheck shared his gas, but had to control his breathing as much as he could to make it last until the first set of stage bottles. Sheck and his buddy managed to get to the bottles, but barely: Sheck' gas ended shortly before getting to the bottles. The pair then managed to swim to the exit, but both divers were breathing hard and did not have enough gas to do deco. One of them had to ascend straight to the surface and ask some other divers topside for more gas.

 

[PfcAJ]

Reading this the discussion on the risks of diving thirds, I recalled reading in "Caverns Measureless to Man" (on chapter 8, I checked), Sheck Exley telling a story of a dive in which he almost died out of gas while diving thirds. His buddy lost all gas because of a first stage leak while at maximum penetration, a little more than 4000ft into the cave. Sheck shared his gas, but had to control his breathing as much as he could to make it last until the first set of stage bottles. Sheck and his buddy managed to get to the bottles, but barely: Sheck' gas ended shortly before getting to the bottles. The pair then managed to swim to the exit, but both divers were breathing hard and did not have enough gas to do deco. One of them had to ascend straight to the surface and ask some other divers topside for more gas.

Part of that issue iirc was that shecks buddy was too light and was struggling to stay off the ceiling.

A lil heavy is way better than a lil too light.

 

[Imbodie]

Part of that issue iirc was that shecks buddy was too light and was struggling to stay off the ceiling.

A lil heavy is way better than a lil too light.

have always said I would walk out if I couldn't swim out... I agree a little over weighted is how I like to be... that IS what the buoyancy compensation is for.... Ok might not work for Eagles Nest.. but would for everything I've had the privilege of diving to date. Oh, lets not forget I'm not a real cave diver yet so I really don't know what I am talking about.