Catalina Diver died today w/ Instructor

[Michelle's Guy]

Maybe instructor responsibility/competence should be another thread?

 

[bsee65]

Okay, so some feel this instructor acted heroically while others think she could/should have done more. For those in the latter camp, what would you have done as the instructor given the stated facts of this incident?

For my part, I would hold an OW instructor to be more responsible for a student than in an AOW class. The OW instructor has to decide whether a diver is qualified to perform the checkout dives, and that's a responsibility that could be applied to a situation like this. Does the AOW instructor bear responsibility to verify that a diver with an OW card really has a complete and thorough grasp of OW skills before letting them enter the water?

In this case, you have a certified diver who went, approximately, to the limit of her existing certification. Unless much has been left out of the story, she was not asked to do anything special related to AOW training on her fatal dive. She should have been able to fully handle any dive-related issue within her prior training level. An acute medical issue might be beyond anyone's control. Based on that, it would be hard for me to place blame on an instructor.

Among the data we don't have are how many other students and/or instructors were part of this class. I also don't recall a report of any buddy arrangements that may have been made in addition to the instructor(s) present.

 

[DandyDon]

You mean, an unlikely scenario such as the one that (apparently) happened in this incident? Or have we all forgotten about this incident?

And I should also remind everyone of a topic of discussion earlier in this thread...sensitivity to who might be reading this thread. Did everyone suddenly forget that the instructor in this incident might just be reading you guys telling her that this is unarguably HER FAULT?

Well, I sympathize that she may well be reading, but wouldn't let that affect my postings really....

Open Water divers are supposed to know better than to do bolting ascents;

Or to hold their breath at all on ascent - or ever;

So if an AOW student does either, I cannot find fault with the Inst.​

I think we have read that the Inst tried to control the situation, thot she had, and then - the student bolted. I am sorry for both, but whatever the reason for the bolt, the Inst did not fail that I can see here. If I panic, holding the inflator down on my BC, I doubt that anyone could catch me.

 

[Thalassamania]

I said nothing about standards...you are putting words in my mouth that I did not say. Please don't do that.

I put no words in your mouth, my reference to a standard was with respect to what I apply to a situation and training that I conduct, it has nothing to do with the crap that agencies pass off as "standards."

My sole disagreement with you is your contention that ANY diver fatality that occurs in a class situation must, inevitably, be the instructor's fault. Nobody can prevent EVERY POSSIBLE thing that might happen, no matter how good a job they do, and how well they are prepared...especially when you are dealing with unpredictable humans. This is reality, not utopia. And not every accident that might occur is someone else's fault.

I never said EVERY POSSIBLE! In point of fact I accepted the fact that it was possible that some might not be the instructor's fault, I just said that the bar for that is pretty high.

Look, I disagree with you. And I think that there are plenty of people who know THIS instructor (involved in this incident) who also would disagree with you.

So what? I don't know the instructor ... SO WHAT? I have seen no information that even begins to make this look like some unavoidable situation that the instructor couldn't do anything about, that occurred, out of the blue, without any signs or symptoms leading up to it. All we know, and perhaps all we will ever know is that the instructor in question did not identify any problems until she was caught up in the crisis.

But you are obviously dead-set in your guilty-until-proven-innocent mindset. Hence, there isn't much point in continuing this discussion.

In a situation like this my experience, which comes from more than 50 yeas of diving experience, forty years of instructing experience and the detailed investigation of more than 2,000 diving fatalities, is that I expect there were things that escaped the notice of the instructor. Why they were not seen is a question of interest. This is not a criminal trial, there is no presumption of innocence, there is no need to prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. This never will be a criminal trial, it may become a civil trial, however, where the decision is based simply on the preponderance of evidence.

I know it's hard to accept that someone actually disagrees with you.

It may be hard for you to accept that, I find it easy to accept, but if you are going to disagree, all that I ask for analysis and reasoning, something that you have not provided.

Is it respectful of you to not tell the truth? Is it respectful of your opinion to not tell the truth? And you are quoting me out of context. What I said was:

If you are uncomfortable with my contention, if you believe that, "crap happens," or you do not believe that I need to trust you to teach my loved ones how to dive, and you want to be a diving instructor anyway, might I suggest that you latch onto one of those hacks that have to certify you as long as you "master" the items required in the standards.
​

You may not like it, but that's the gods' honest truth and I respect you too much to lie to you. I never called you an idiot, a moron, or even a bad diver, I never would. Frankly you could have avoided the entire issue by doing nothing more than telling me you agree or explaining why you would take a loved one to an instructor who believes in the concept of "crap happens."

Death is a hash topic, I understand that you find it difficult to address objectively, perhaps I've seen too much of it over the years to surround it with the warm fuzzies that make everyone feel better. I will take responsibility for that and express my regrets that you found it harsh and/or disrespectful, it was not intended as such.

Nor does it give you the right to urge me not to be an instructor. (Which, by the way, I have no interest in doing...not because I think I can't do it, but because I already have a job.)

Experience sure as hell does give me the right to share with you what I think the attributes are of a good instructor. You have every right to disagree.

You mean, an unlikely scenario such as the one that (apparently) happened in this incident? Or have we all forgotten about this incident?

What unlikely scenario? I've not read a description of any such. I've read some speculation as to what might or might not be at the root of the problem, and Dr. Bill's summary with corrections, but experience and Occum's razor says that the victim aspirated a little water or flooded her mask and was insufficiently trained to deal with that. Could something else have happened? Yes, but that's what I'd bet on. It appears to me that, despite being out of optimum position, the instructor did a pretty good job from the point of the bolt on, my possible criticism involves the student's preparedness for the dive and possibly missing cues that trouble was on its way.

And I should also remind everyone of a topic of discussion earlier in this thread...sensitivity to who might be reading this thread. Did everyone suddenly forget that the instructor in this incident might just be reading you guys telling her that this is unarguably HER FAULT?

That's not what I said, I said was that it was arguably her fault, but that there is a little bit of room for discussion ... let's hear the discussion, let's have a rigorous and unflinching cross examination, a real crash board ... but we are not going to, no one has the stomach for it and the lawyers will not permit it anyway, so it will get settled out of court for an undisclosed amount; and the case will be sealed with a non-disclosure agreement; and no one, including the instructor, will ever really learn anything. It is such a shame and such a waste, in so many ways.

 

[merxlin]

That's not what I said, I said was that it was arguably her fault, but that there is a little bit of room for discussion ... let's hear the discussion, let's have a rigorous and unflinching cross examination, a real crash board ... but we are not going to, no one has the stomach for it and the lawyers will not permit it anyway, so it will get settled out of court for an undisclosed amount; and the case will be sealed with a non-disclosure agreement; and no one, including the instructor, will ever really learn anything. It is such a shame and such a waste, in so many ways.

There is a separate thread for this Speculation along with several others that have been split from this thread. You are merely speculating and the facts as known and noted do not support your thoughts here. Your thoughts on instruction and the agencies precedes you, but IMO that is also best discussed in another thread.

That said Thal, I respect your opinions and do not argue that if we are truly able to dissect most incidents you will find that there will always be something that someone, whether it is the instructor, student, buddy, DM, boat captain, or classmates, could have done differently. What level of responsibility each one has is determined by the situation. Panic, by it's nature is a very difficult problem to judge, and almost impossible to predetermine how it will manifest itself.

 

[Leejnd]

Well, I guess I had that coming. I've done enough dissecting of other people's posts...it was bound to happen to me eventually.

I give you that I overstated and misstated your position - you are correct that you didn't say "always" or even "unarguably". You did leave the smallest amount of room for some reason other than "instructor's fault." But it was a tiny enough margin that I interpreted you to mean that you believe it's "virtually" always the instructor's fault. So...mea culpa. I apologize for misstating your position by even that fractional amount.

Anyway, you obviously have lots more experience than me. And you feel that my less amount of experience renders my opinions invalid on this topic. So I will let go of this discussion.

 

[openmindOW]

Thall raises good points regarding what our industry now calls "mastery" and "standards."

I'll assume that the Instructor in question is a good Instructor. But the fact is that there are a bunch of crappy Instructors out there.

Oh, and BTW, even good Instructors can screw-up.

 

[drbill]

Certainly no question that even good instructors can make mistakes. I wasn't underwater with the group, so I can't comment with certainty but my assumption would be the issues with the deceased student were dealt with as effectively as possible.

My understanding is that the descent was undertaken by more than the instructor and a single student. The instructor had other students at the dive park that day, as well as two DMCs.

It is not physically possible for any dive professional to keep an eye on every student 100% of the time unless it was just the two of them doing the dive. In addition, there are times when an instructor has to be a little attention to themselves... checking the SPG for example.

 

[drbill]

Earlier today I posted one of my weekly "Dive Dry with Dr. Bill" newspaper columns based in part on this incident. Here is the link to that thread:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/marine-life-ecosystems/311614-dive-dry-dr-bill-361-dive-accidents-speculation.html#post4845333

 

[Thalassamania]

There is a separate thread for this Speculation along with several others that have been split from this thread. You are merely speculating and the facts as known and noted do not support your thoughts here. Your thoughts on instruction and the agencies precedes you, but IMO that is also best discussed in another thread.

Beyond saying that most accidents of this sort seem to involve a flooded mask or aspiration of water I don't recall "speculating" as to cause or events. My point was simply that there are usually warning signs prior to a student bolting.

Well, I guess I had that coming. I've done enough dissecting of other people's posts...it was bound to happen to me eventually.

I give you that I overstated and misstated your position - you are correct that you didn't say "always" or even "unarguably". You did leave the smallest amount of room for some reason other than "instructor's fault." But it was a tiny enough margin that I interpreted you to mean that you believe it's "virtually" always the instructor's fault. So...mea culpa. I apologize for misstating your position by even that fractional amount.

Thank you, you are very gracious, a rare treat here.

Anyway, you obviously have lots more experience than me. And you feel that my less amount of experience renders my opinions invalid on this topic. So I will let go of this discussion.

I do not feel that your opinions are invalid and I do not reject them on the basis of experience or lack there of. It is good to have all possibilities out one the table for examination.

Thall raises good points regarding what our industry now calls "mastery" and "standards."

I'll assume that the Instructor in question is a good Instructor. But the fact is that there are a bunch of crappy Instructors out there.

Oh, and BTW, even good Instructors can screw-up.

Yes they can, yes we all have, most of the time we are all lucky enough to not have anyone suffer as a result.

Certainly no question that even good instructors can make mistakes. I wasn't underwater with the group, so I can't comment with certainty but my assumption would be the issues with the deceased student were dealt with as effectively as possible.

My understanding is that the descent was undertaken by more than the instructor and a single student. The instructor had other students at the dive park that day, as well as two DMCs.

It is not physically possible for any dive professional to keep an eye on every student 100% of the time unless it was just the two of them doing the dive. In addition, there are times when an instructor has to be a little attention to themselves... checking the SPG for example.

One of the lessons I learned early on (as a result of the sorts of screwups that I mentioned earlier) is that I only have two hands and two eyes so I strive to never enter the water in any configuration other than two buddy pairs of students (who've been drilled to look after each other) and a staff member as my buddy. That way the available assistance is layered and always available. It is just these sorts of circumstances that made me decide, very early on, to stay with low ratio, 100 hour, 12 dive minimum courses where I have the time to really minimize the possibility of a panic response from any but rather outlandish circumstances.

Earlier today I posted one of my weekly "Dive Dry with Dr. Bill" newspaper columns based in part on this incident. Here is the link to that thread:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ma...1-dive-accidents-speculation.html#post4845333

Good write-up Bill.