Catalina Diver died today w/ Instructor

[dmoore19]

This thread is for discussion of the incident. It is not to discuss what dive op to use. The name of the Instructor and the name of the victim have no business being posted in this thread. It would not affect the outcome of the discussion and is therefore useless under the circumstances. If there was a problem with said instructor the discussion should be in a different forum anyway.

 

[Thalassamania]

It may seem heartless and callous but I find it hard to believe, at the core, that an instructor who has a student die during a class did, "everything right." I'd have to be persuaded of that, and it would be a very, very hard sell.

 

[Leejnd]

It may seem heartless and callous but I find it hard to believe, at the core, that an instructor who has a student die during a class did, "everything right." I'd have to be persuaded of that, and it would be a very, very hard sell.

Really? Even if a student had a massive heart attack underwater? Even if a student, for no discernible reason, with no warning, and after having appeared to pay attention and learn all the course material, breathed in a lungful of air, clamped her airway closed and bolted for the surface? What if a student was secretly and undetectably suicidal, and decided at 60 fsw to just remove his regulator and suck in seawater?

I'm not suggesting in any way that any of this is what happened in this incident. I'm just trying to point out that things CAN happen in a dive class that could end in a diver fatality, that had nothing whatsoever to do with the instructor.

 

[Thalassamania]

Really? Even if a student had a heart attack underwater? Even if a student, for no discernible reason, with no warning, and after having appeared to pay attention and learn all the course material, breathed in a lungful of air, clamped her airway closed and bolted for the surface? What if a student was secretly and undetectably suicidal, and decided at 60 fsw to just remove his regulator and suck in seawater?

I'm not suggesting in any way that any of this is what happened in this incident. I'm just trying to point out that things CAN happen in a dive class that could end in a diver fatality, that had nothing whatsoever to do with the instructor.

Heart attack, if the rescue was handed perfectly but the student died anyway might make that hard sell as might a suicide who left a note, a student, for no discernible reason, with no warning, and after having appeared to pay attention and learn all the course material, breathed in a lungful of air, clamped her airway closed and bolted for the surface ... naw, if nothing else the student should have been trained to keep the regulator in and solve the problem in situ, without bolting. I find just about any "bolt" problematical, we in the science community have trained thousands of divers over fifty odd years and never had it happen (knock wood).

 

[Cave Diver]

---

---

A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

All the hoopla about whether or not an instructor should be named and the associated discussion has been moved to this thread: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/whine-cheeze/311568-instructor-name-split-catalina-diver-death.html

---

 

[Leejnd]

Y'know, I'm not a dive instructor. I AM an instructor, but not of diving. So while I have empathy for how hard it really is to teach adults, I can't speak from the perspective of a dive instructor.

Even so, I am just uncomfortable with your contention. I think it puts too much of the onus on the instructor...and unfairly lays blame.

Crap happens. People do stupid things. We can't control the actions of others. We can't even predict the behavior of others. If any instructor involved in a class in which a diver dies is going to be viewed as "guilty until proven innocent", that just seems wholly unfair and unreasonable.

It sure does make me NOT want to be a dive instructor!

 

[Thalassamania]

It is (at least in my opinion) the duty of an instructor to make damn sure that crap doesn't happen, to be prepared and one step ahead of every stupid thing that people might do, yes ... to use all the cues and SA to predict the behavior of others and head it off before it becomes a problem. If one is not up to that task one should not take on the mantle of being a diving instructor.

I know far too many who are not up to the task, who can barely talk the talk and who most assuredly can not walk the walk, if you're not up to that level of concentration and awareness, despite the fact that your friendly local money grubbing Course Director would love to certify you as a "Professional," I'd strongly recommend that you not do so. If you find that that standard of performance makes you NOT want to be a dive instructor, then I've done you a really good turn this evening. This is not a court, this is not a trial, there is no innocent until proven guilty when an Instructor looses a student. There is almost no excuse, almost no explanation, almost no rationalization that is adequate.

The final test of whether I certify a candidate as an instructor is to look into my heart and ask myself, "would I trust this individual to teach my loved ones how to dive?" That is the standard that I hold all candidates, all staff and myself to ... at all times.

If you are uncomfortable with my contention, if you believe that, "crap happens," or you do not believe that I need to trust you to teach my loved ones how to dive, and you want to be a diving instructor anyway, might I suggest that you latch onto one of those hacks that have to certify you as long as you "master" the items required in the standards. Best of luck.

 

[Leejnd]

I completely agree that it is incumbent on a dive instructor to do the best job possible, and be as prepared as humanly possible to ensure that nothing bad happens. I certainly have no issue with "standards of performance". I said nothing about standards...you are putting words in my mouth that I did not say. Please don't do that.

My sole disagreement with you is your contention that ANY diver fatality that occurs in a class situation must, inevitably, be the instructor's fault. Nobody can prevent EVERY POSSIBLE thing that might happen, no matter how good a job they do, and how well they are prepared...especially when you are dealing with unpredictable humans. This is reality, not utopia. And not every accident that might occur is someone else's fault.

Look, I disagree with you. And I think that there are plenty of people who know THIS instructor (involved in this incident) who also would disagree with you.

But you are obviously dead-set in your guilty-until-proven-innocent mindset. Hence, there isn't much point in continuing this discussion.

I know it's hard to accept that someone actually disagrees with you. But please be respectful of me, and of my opinion...and refrain from saying things like:

might I suggest that you latch onto one of those hacks that have to certify you as long as you "master" the items required in the standards.

That was harsh and uncalled for. We disagree on something, on a philosophical level. That does not make me an idiot, a moron, or even a bad diver. Nor does it give you the right to speak so harshly and disrespectfully to me.

Nor does it give you the right to urge me not to be an instructor. (Which, by the way, I have no interest in doing...not because I think I can't do it, but because I already have a job.)

 

[gcbryan]

I'd have to agree with Thal on this one (baring some extremely unlikely scenarios). A student almost has to trust an instructor with their life to one degree or another initially.

I'm not an instructor and when I dive with a new diver I'm very cautious but I do expect some degree of capability from them so crap could happen.

When I instruct in a mentoring way (I'm not an instructor) regarding rock climbing (teach someone a skill they don't have at all) I do treat them as I would a family member because for them to get killed or injured at that specific point would be unacceptable to me (and to their family).

If it's not a new skill then it's different. They of course have much of the responsibility but in a certification class no one expects to die (nor should they) in that environment.

 

[Leejnd]

I'd have to agree with Thal on this one (baring some extremely unlikely scenarios).

You mean, an unlikely scenario such as the one that (apparently) happened in this incident? Or have we all forgotten about this incident?

And I should also remind everyone of a topic of discussion earlier in this thread...sensitivity to who might be reading this thread. Did everyone suddenly forget that the instructor in this incident might just be reading you guys telling her that this is unarguably HER FAULT?